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BossaGuy

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hello, I'm working my way through Ted's arrangement of Meditation. At one point it says under the grid "USE RIGHT HAND 'ENTRANCE' TECHNIQUE". Can anyone direct me to the place where this is explained. Screen Shot 2020-02-28 at 9.10.10 pm.png 

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Tom
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi BossaGuy,
If you look at the notated version of Ted's arrangement of "Meditation" you can see that we interpreted this "right hand entrance" (measure 16) to mean that the dot note is played first, and then the other notes (which are written as dashed circles) are played after it.  The most common way of "entrance" for those other notes is to arpeggiate them from the bottom moving upward, which is how it is notated.  If desired you could have the notes enter in a different sequence, as you like.

Most of the symbols in Ted's grid diagrams are explained in his Chord Chemistry and Modern Chord Progression books, as well as a document I put together in my "From Students" section: "How to Read Ted Greene's Chord Diagrams."  However, sometimes Ted would come up with unique directions to try to express quickly what he was thinking/hearing/playing.  Experience tells me that the notation that we used in the write-up was probably what he was thinking.  Of course, you are free to interpret it the way it sounds best to you and that feels comfortable to play.
Good luck!

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BossaGuy

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Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Paul,
Thanks, that's what I guessed too, but then I thought that he could've just said "arpeggiated" so I thought that perhaps he means harmonics or something. I have read the sections on reading his chord diagrams in those books, I just don't recall reading about a "right hand 'entrance' technique'.

BTW, I'm also working on Quiet Nights/Corcovado and I'm listening to the lesson that you mention in another forum topic on that tune in 2015. I'm guessing that no one has transcribed it so far. I'm an amateur but I might try to do a transcription based on this lesson as it seems to be a really good tune to learn on. I know this piece really well in its basic form so it's a really good one for me to study Ted's approach on.

Edit: I just found Googling around that in this lesson Ted is teaching the Cycle of 6ths progressions that he got from Bach (Dave Majerus, Cycle of 6ths Progression: Annotated Bibliography). Parts of lesson #46 related to the Cycle of 6th has been transcribed by Robert Smith. The lesson starts with Corcovado improv then moves to Sus chords, and Cycle of 6ths, then returns to Corcovado. Seems like in learning Corcovado you're also learning how to improvise over a tune using the Cycle of 6ths and sus chords.

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Tom
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Tom,
We highly encourage any transcribing of Ted's recordings....for your musical growth, and, if you're willing to share with us, for the benefit of others who visit this site.
Let us know how it's going, and don't hesitate to ask for help here in the Forums.  Lots of great players who are willing to share their knowledge & experience.
Good luck!

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BigMickey

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Reply with quote  #5 
While not specific to guitar, check out (google) Stephen Williamson, Soft Entrance Technique.  (Would provide link here but being disallowed as spam by the Forum - any help adding links to replies appreciated).

Essentially: "...how the note speaks at the outset of the sound--getting it to begin unobtrusively with a non-jarring timbre, at exactly the right dynamic level."

Perhaps Ted was thinking of maintaining the dynamic level via right-hand technique where arpeggios are sandwiched between denser chordal sections.

regards - Mike
klasaine

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Reply with quote  #6 
To reiterate what Paul says ...
Ted just wants you to hit the high A first then arpeggiate the lower part of the G13 then ending on the sharp 5.
He wasn't super rigid about dynamics or what note(s) you started an arp with. In fact there are many TG lessons that show several ways of breaking up a chord.

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ken lasaine
BigMickey

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMickey
Hello Ken - in the spirit of good discussion

I believe that Ted was being very specific here and "entrance technique" is quite different from "arpeggiate," understanding Ted's passion for voice-leading.

Consider the transcript:
Screen Shot 2020-03-13 at 2.36.23 PM.png  The notes of the G13 in the final measure - with the exception of the high A (which is setup in the previous measure) - are intended to have an eighth-note value.  How many folks when they arpeggiate hold the chord in full?  Meaning, when you arpeggiate, does the low G incorrectly receive a half note?  Does the low F get a dotted quarter? Does the B get a quarter?  If so, then that is not potentially what Ted had in mind.  To give each note of that final measure its TRUE value, one must play it as if its a Van Eps harmonic mechanic, arriving at the high A and then playing the arpeggio as if it were a run into the altered G9.  Subtle, but different.

This entrance technique would have been known to Ted through his passion for Baroque/Classical.  See the following regarding voices in string quartets (see the paragraph and the footnote):
Image 052.jpg 
excerpt from "Emergence of the Second Violin in the Classical String Quartets of Haydn, Mozart, an Beethoven."

You can hear the difference in Ted's playing the tune in Nick Stasinos's lessons.  Throughout the head he is arpeggiating - you can hear the sustain in the bass carry through.  But not at the G13.  There is a different dynamic at play there.

best regards - Big Mickey


James

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Reply with quote  #8 
I don't know what right hand entrance technique is.  But the opposite must be left foot exit technique.
klasaine

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Reply with quote  #9 
Maybe so.
I am relating what I know from being in lessons with him.

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ken lasaine
BigMickey

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Reply with quote  #10 
I envy your having had that opportunity.  It must have been wonderful to hear  and to interact with him in that setting.
BossaGuy

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Reply with quote  #11 
Me: What's "right hand entrance technique"?
American guy: arpeggiate the chord
French guy: Masters of Musicology thesis on African polyrhythms

(Sorry, I hear stereotyping is not PC these days. I'm old. Can't help myself.)

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Tom
BossaGuy

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patlotch2

sorry because my level of English does not allow me to know if you are laughing or not. On the one hand, you will find all evidence that African polyrhythms have had a strong influence on jazz since its origins. On the other hand, if you study the right hand work that Georges Van Eps' method implies, or that of Jimmy Wyble, or simply Classical Guitar Studies for permutations in arpeggios from Tarrega to Villa-Lobos and Postlewate for 5 fingers, as well as Ted Greene's baroque counterpoint studies himself, you will understand that what I propose is perfectly guitaristic and compatible with the teaching of Ted Greene. Of course, for this, it's years of work...

still a recent text, but in English, there is only the title, sorry

La contramétricité dans les musiques traditionnelles africaines et son rapport au jazz
https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/as/2014-v38-n1-as01471/1025811ar/

Contrametricity in African Traditional Music and its Relation to Jazz

good luck in your "Right Hand "entrance" technique, waiting to find the "way out" [rolleyes]


Could you summarise your answer to my question in 10 words or less? (Sending me a link to a musicology website in French on traditional African polyrhythms and the connections in the brain between the auditory and motor centres as evidenced by dancing parrots not allowed).

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Tom
BossaGuy

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Reply with quote  #13 
Well, I guess I lost interest in the right hand entrance technique. Probably can do without it if I have to read your stuff.
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Tom
klasaine

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Reply with quote  #14 
When it's all said and done, music is an auditory art. How about we just play it and put it into context.

The bar in question is at about 0:43.
Played at the standard tempo of the song, there's really only one way to navigate it. *Worth noting - Jobim doesn't play anything there at the turnaround.




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ken lasaine
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #15 
Thanks, Ken.  Nice interpretation and performance.
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