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ronjazz

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Posts: 27
Reply with quote  #16 
I am awaiting the arrival (today, I hope) of a new 7-string guitar to try these concepts out on, lowering the bass notes in the Chorales an octave where possible, etc. This is very valuable info on this forum, and I thank all of you who are so generously sharing.
Greg

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Posts: 36
Reply with quote  #17 
I was wondering if ted had sugestions of how to best apply other tones to these voicings such as 9's, 11's, 13's....
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #18 

Greg,

Ted had a very comprehensive outline for his V-chord system.  I don't know if he ever disseminated it completely.  Here is one page that has some samples of V-2 chords for Major 6/9, Major 9, and Add 9 chords for the top 4 strings.  This may shed some light....



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Greg

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Posts: 36
Reply with quote  #19 
Thanks Paul this is a great worksheet.
kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #20 
Maybe this has been mentioned before, but I just noticed it: 

The V-3 chords have the same shape whether your bass note is on the 5th or 6th strings. Makes life a little easier. Has anyone noticed any others like that?

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #21 
Hi Knotiki,
Yes, there's many similarities in some of the voicing group chord forms. That has mainly to do with the way the guitar is tuned.  If we tuned to all 4ths then every chord would transfer equally to the other strings.
Check out this offering from Bob Holt on "String Transference"
http://tedgreene.com/fromstudents/lesson1.asp

You all should know that another student of Ted's and I are working on compiling all his material about his Voicing Group chord system, that will (hopefully!) be compiled into a book.  It's an amazing body of work and will be revolutionary in how a guitarist looks at chords.  Too bad Ted didn't put it all together.  He seemed to have had many book projects all going on at the same time, but never finished them.

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wkriski

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Posts: 117
Reply with quote  #22 
Hey ghandi,
I think most people have trouble applying these types of reference books. They try a few chords then put the book back on the shelf. One thing I've done is to start simple. Arrange chord melodies using simple standard chord grips. For each note of a scale you can find a voicing that has the scale note in the melody. eg for C note you have C6, D could be Cmaj9, E is Cmaj7, F# is Cmaj7#11, etc. Do this for minor chords, dominant, m7b5 and diminished qualities.

Then you could use chord chemistry to find alternate voicings for the same chord that have the same melody note but give you different sounds.

You can actually do a lot with basic chord grips and adding reharmonizations such as backcycling.

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kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #23 
Just to try to  put some more pieces of the Voicing System puzzle back into place:

   I have for some time suspected the missing 4 voicing groups (11 through 14) of being the following:
 
     -1 3 5 7   (like V.1 with drop 3 and 4  (or like V.1 with the 2  highest voices up and octave))
     -1 3 5 7  (like V.1 with drop 2, 3 & 4   (or like V.1 with 1 (highest voice) up an octave))
 
plus two very stretchy voice groups that can only be played high up on the neck:

   -1 3 7 5   ( like V.3 with the lowest note down an octave (or V.5 with the second lowest note up 2 octaves)
   -1 7 3 5  ( like V.4  With the top voice up an octave)

   I just found confirmation here  http://forums.tedgreene.com/file?id=294798 that:

V.13 = the 1st in my list : 1 3 5 7   (like V.1 with drop 3 and 4)
and
V.12 = -1 3 7 5   ( like V.3 with the lowest note down an octave (or V.5 with the second lowest note up 2 octaves))

so from this evidence I would say that:

V.14 = 1 3 5 7  (like V.1 with drop 2, 3 & 4   (or V.1 with 1 up an octave))

and  

V.11 = 1 7 3 5  ( like V.4  With the top voice up an octave)

Paul or Barbara, do you have any Bach chorales where Ted wrote a V.14 or V.11 ?


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sonnyintervals

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Posts: 40
Reply with quote  #24 
Brilliant, thanks Mike I've just recently started to get to grips with learning Ted's voicing system using the info in this thread. Any advice would be appreciated, can you, or can anyone point me towards other sheets on this subject.
kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #25 
I think Paul's sheet on post #11 in this thread is a great and thorough resource. It just about says it all in regards to the First 10 voicing groups. 
 Oddly enough there aren't many  lesson sheets specifically on his voicing system (on this site), but it permeates all his lessons and his playing. I guess he was preparing to unleash it onto the world, but ultimately didn't get a chance to put it into book form.
  As for advice, I would suggest concentrating on one voiceing group at a time when trying to incorporate it into your playing. I've recently discovered the joys and advantages of V-5 and am trying to make it "second nature". I think it (V-5) was one of Ted's (numerous) secret weapons.

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #26 
James...care to jump in here with some info on this subject? 
I hate to see the Voicing System misrepresented....there's so much more, and Ted had many pages written up regarding certain V-group exercises and examples.

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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #27 
In what way is it being misrepresented? I don't think anybody has had the audacity to "represent" them in any light other than trying to elucidate a mystery.
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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #28 
Ted discovered a formula for guitar voicings (his V-system, as we call it) that has not been disseminated yet.  It is rather complex and very comprehensive. The formula sheets that I posted sometime back are pretty accurate regarding most of the forms, but they are limited in scope of the whole system.  They don't go beyond the maj7. min7, dom7 and m7(b5) flavors nor do they take into consideration optional fingerings and other things.

James is the one person who has discussed this Voicing Group system with Ted and understands it better than anyone else. Ted actually refers to an approach that James devised for arriving at the same voicing groups after he and Ted discussed the system in a lesson.  He was impressed with James' method, which he called the "gap method."

Ted's V-system is an amazing approach and we're working on putting it together into some kind of book form.  It's much more than just a catalog of chord forms and transformations (like drop-2 voicings).  So yes, James does have some special insight to properly represent Ted's system.  We've been slowly working on putting all the material together - but it will take time.  And we're doing this in our "free time" and don't expect any payback, so it can't be posted or released just yet. (Sorry!)

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cm0220ster

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Posts: 1
Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghandi
 i have had chord chemistry for about a year and a half and finally feal like i should really try to dig into it for good length of time- if not for the rest of my life. I understand  that the book is one of those things that you have to put in huge amounts of time into and continually chip away at, but i have been just staring at the chords trying to organize them in some sort of logical way to no avail. i do have background in the caged system, but it doesnt seem to be a focuse in the book.  i would appreciate any help from anyone. thank you very much. 


You mentioned you were looking at the caged system. Try to find voicings built around those basic chords, and obviously know the layouts (the root, 3 and 5). Build from there. This book is designed for folks who have a pretty good knowledge of chord construction already and wish to build on that. I didn't get chord chemistry then until I learned that stuff.
jughandle

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Posts: 2
Reply with quote  #30 
Is it safe to conclude that the forthcoming V11 - V14  details would have an octave up or down between voices 1  & 2 and between 3 & 4?  Looks like you've covered all possible combinations in V1 - V5 and V8 ...  What's left?

Thanks very much for these efforts!  I can't wait for the future posts!  Because I am simple :-), I made some charts years ago with all possible triad arpeggios and inversions in all keys all over the neck.  This was beautiful, because I could just add on the 6th, 7th, 9th, etc. to get to the 4-note chord.  But now you put me in orbit, when you tell me that these 4-note chords can be grouped by their sound and playability "spacing", "tighter" in V1, "looser" in V14.  I need to digest that for a year or two!
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