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kontiki

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Posts: 257
Reply with quote  #1 
First off, Bravo!  The table is great and handy. And the explanation is pretty clear as well.

That being said, I've had for a while my own crude, and sometimes arduous, and probably not 100% foolproof method. It's not so easy to explain, but I'll give it a try.

I'm basically pretty familiar with the basic qualities of the 14 voicing groups (familiar, but far from fluent!),  so when I see a voicing I don't know, I'll find the closest m7, Maj7, or 7  inversion to that voicing. If it has extensions or alterations, I need to verify that the alterations or extensions that  were made to arrive at the particular voicing didn't cross any particular boundaries (for example with add9 the 7th can't go past the 1 if the 1 stays in place  etc.). In any event I was able to do the quiz using this personal and sometimes slower method. But the table definitely came in handy when double checking. 

Just some comments:
I guess you interpreted some chords in the quiz (name wise) a little differently, so as to make it more interesting? I'm thinking notably of #23 which I associated to a Gbmaj7#5 (it was easier for me to find the voicing group when i saw it as such). same goes for #16 which i saw as a Ebm7#5.

In the quiz, why are all the b9 and b5 in parenthesis? They're present and not implied.

I'm really interested to see the other methods. I still haven't been able to come up with a chord that doesn't funnel (as James says). Do they all use open strings or impossible stretches?

Again, great work, and great material!

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Dmolished = Egads
James

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #2 
Hi kontiki,

I think your method of taking a chord in a known voicing group and doing a minor, often chromatic, tweak of one of the notes to get another chord in the same voicing group is a good one.  As I said in the intro, there are certain procedures that change chords in ways that do not change their voicing group: string transfer, transposition, systematic inversion, and changing a chord's quality in a way that does not change its spacing.  You're doing the latter.

Method 1 and its table are the heart of the V-System as Ted conceived it.  It's the precise way he worked out for classifying four note chords.  You wouldn't have model examples of chords in various voicing groups to to tweak their qualities if Ted hadn't provided you with them.  He used Method 1 as the primary tool in developing his V-System.

Paul and I went back and forth on using parentheses in the names of the chords.  At first, I wanted to do things Ted's way and only use parentheses for implied chord tones and not included chord tones.  But then we also would have had to use triangles for major, which can be a little hard in a typed document.  In the end, we used square brackets for implied things and parentheses for included things.  It's just a little easier for Paul to do it that way from Sibelius, one of the programs that he uses.  I already give Paul a ton of work, doing all my graphics and giving me feedback.  I didn't want to make him redo a bunch of chord names.  We decided that guitarists are used to seeing chord names written in many varied ways and they can handle and understand them written the way we did.  But you are 100% right that this NOT the way Ted likely would have done it.  That still bugs me some but I'm more concerned with getting the most important details of the V-System out there than minor chord naming issues.

Next month, I'll present Method 1 how to build.  The month after that, Method 2, the chord tone gap method that I discovered and Ted approved.  After that Method 3.

I only said that Method 3 doesn't funnel.  And only in the uncompleted state that Ted left it.  Methods 1 and 2 always funnel, although sometimes with open strings a chord can end up outside of the V-System, that is, its spacing is so extreme, that it doesn't fit into any of the fourteen voicing groups.  So what I mean by "not funneling" is different than finding chords that are unclassifiable in the V-System.  Not funneling means that you can take a chord you know is a V-3 and the incomplete table of Method 3 can't tell you whether it's a V-3 or a V-4.  You will see when we get to Method 3.

I'll look at and address your specific questions about the quiz but I suspect you just favor a different homonym than the one I happened to choose.
kontiki

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Posts: 257
Reply with quote  #3 
James, thanks for the reply, and the great work you're doing. You're absolutely right when you say 
Quote:
You wouldn't have model examples of chords in various voicing groups to to tweak their qualities if Ted hadn't provided you with them.
i realize that and am grateful. 
you're also right to point out that only method 3 doesn't funnel. I hadn't understood that. I thought the other two methods were invented because method 1 was just a convenient way of doing it but that it wasn't very exact. So now that i understand that it always works, my question is: why bother with the other methods then? why did he try to create other methods? was he dissatisfied with the table lookup procedure? Or was he looking for a more definite way of defining each group?

as for:
 
Quote:
I'll look at and address your specific questions about the quiz but I suspect you just favor a different homonym than the one I happened to choose. 
 yes, it's just a question of favoring different homonyms.

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Dmolished = Egads
James

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #4 
Hi again, kontiki.  I looked at the quiz and the alternate names you suggest for a couple of chords make sense, too.  Obviously we would choose the best name from the context of how the chord is used.  In isolation, any of the various homonyms can be used, yes?

Of course, there is the question of what is the most common name for a particular chord and that is not always easy to answer.  Is G6 or Em7 a more common name?

This issue will come up for me again when I later present the 43 chord qualities of the V-System.  Ted really knew his homonyms and I will likely come up short in trying to include as many as I can for each of the 43.  Fortunately, Ted left some lists that will help.
James

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #5 
Why bother with Methods 2 and 3?  You don't have to.  You can happily just use Method 1 and forget about the other two.

Method 2 was created by me when I discovered a pattern in Ted's V-System.  In Ted's notes, he said Method 2 would be helpful for some students, maybe not all.  But I think you will find it interesting when we get to it.

Method 3 was Ted's last attempt at yet another way to approach the V-System.

Anyway, please be patient.  We can talk more about the three methods and their advantages and disadvantages when I have presented them all.  What you can know for now is that Method 1 was what Ted used to create the V-System.  He considered it the fastest.  And it was probably the most important of the three for him.
James

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #6 
Also, thank you for your encouragement.  I'm working hard to try to present the V-System in as clear a way as possible.  It helps me to hear back what is clear and what is not.
mfebres

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Posts: 1
Reply with quote  #7 
James, could you explain how you came up with the 43 four distinct note chords.  Possibly list them?  I don't understand why there is 43.

Thanks, Mario
James

Registered:
Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #8 
When I worked out that there are 43 four note chord qualities, I was following Ted's footsteps.  He figured it out long before I did.  There will be a chapter coming up on the 43 with all the details.  Sorry to say that will probably post in October.

This month (July 2012) I posted Method 1 - How to Recognize.
For next month, August, you'll get Method 1 - How to Build.
For Sept., Method 2.
Then for Oct., I'll do the 43 qualities as a preface to Method 3.

The laborious way to calculate the 43 is to write out every 4 note chord as said in the Intro: 

C C# D D#
C C# D E
etc.

eliminating chords that are transpositions or inversions as you go.  I did this once.  It takes a long time!  Ted did it many times to check himself.  Ted figured out a much quicker way to write out the 43 permutations which I will explain in the upcoming chapter.

The number 43 is a strange one and you may wonder where it comes from.  I'll talk a little about that in the chapter also although I'm certainly not a mathematician specializing in combinatorics.
BenjaminIra

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Posts: 10
Reply with quote  #9 
Thank you so much for doing this James.. I love the sounds of chord clusters, and am excited to see V-1

All the Best!
Ben
James

Registered:
Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #10 
Okay.  Kontiki wants all three methods presented.  Mario wants the 43 four note chord qualities listed and explained.  Ben wants some sheets from Ted on V-1.  It's all coming and we're grateful for the interest and enthusiasm.

Why does only so much come each month?  A little bit it's to tease you and keep you coming back for more.  But mostly it's because those of us contributing our time for free only have so much each month.  Personally I'm trying to present explanations of the V-System as clearly and correctly as I can to do it justice for Ted.  If you knew how much Paul works in so many ways here, you'd be amazed.  And there are others making valuable and appreciated contributions.

So we'll keep it coming.  Thanks for the interest and encouragement.
James

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #11 
Anyone with any questions about the V-System can, of course, post them here in the forums.  But you are also welcome to send me a private message, if you prefer.  To do that, click on my name to the left and select private message.

In general, it's nice to post in the forum because then everyone benefits from your question.  But if you're shy, I'm happy to respond to private messages, too.
jazzuki

Registered:
Posts: 64
Reply with quote  #12 
James. I would like to thank you for the help you have given me re the V-System.  Am very appreciative to the time and effort that you and all the other guys put into this site. Ted would be delighted.
bmreeds

Registered:
Posts: 50
Reply with quote  #13 
I've been reading through the V system, not sure how I would use this system.....I know the drop 2 and drop 2/3 chords and spread chords and triads...If I'm working on a chord melody, and I want a Major 9 chord, I would use this method to discover more major 9 possibilities?....Am I on the right tract?....James, could you give an example on how you would use this system?......
James

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Posts: 316
Reply with quote  #14 

When you say that you know drop 2, drop 2/3 and spread chords, what does that mean?  It means that you've found helpful ways to organize your chord knowledge into categories.

 

The V-System is a COMPREHENSIVE way to organize four-note chords.  This means that, with very few exceptions, ANY four-note guitar chord can be categorized in one of the fourteen voicing groups.  The group names, like V-2, may be a little less familiar to you but V-2 is essentially drop-2.

 

So yes, you could use this to discover more maj9 chords, for example.  There are 56 maj9 no root chords and 56 more maj9 no fifth chords in the V-System.  Some of them might not sound so good to you but all of them exist.

 

Or you could notice that you like some V-4 chords and decide that you want to learn more of them.

 

Or you might want to find the weirdest four-note chords you can.

 

There are lots of ways to use the V-System.  The V-System is just a way of organizing four-note chords.

 

If you have a box of 500 crayons, it probably helps to have the reds together, the blues, the yellows, etc.  It would make those crayons easier to use.  Now how you make art with them is up to you...

bmreeds

Registered:
Posts: 50
Reply with quote  #15 
Ok James, thanks....I'll give it a shot and see what I can do with it... Yes, the drop 2, 2/3 and spread chords are systems...
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