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guitarnerd24

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Posts: 13
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi im new to the site and was wondering what it means when in progressions it says V of V ,or lV of V stuff like that. lke in the analysis of misty at the bottom roman numeral look it says ii,V,I of IV? could anyone elaborate on the subject?
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi,
I'll take a stab at explaining this as I recall learning from Ted.

V of V simply means the V chord of the V chord.  For example, in the key of C, D7 is the V or G (the V chord in C).

Basically, it is a way of looking at how you are approaching a chord.  Think of that new target chord as being a temporary key center all unto itself.

If a group of chords are indicated as "of IV" then that group is thought of as belonging to the key center of the IV chord.  

In the key of C, chords indicated as "of IV" would be thought of as temporarily belonging to the key of F.

For example, if you had F-Dm-Gm-C7 in a song that started out in the key of C, this section would be more easily analyzed as the I-vi-ii-V in the key of F ...which is the IV in C.

Does this make sense?
--Paul



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--Paul
TLerch

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Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #3 
I see ii V7 of IV as a kind of short hand for describing what is more accurately  called v(minor) I7 IV. and as you can see it is a bit clunky to write it that way. (I've seen Ted refer to it both ways) Its a subtle diff. but it not like a modulation to the key of IV it is only a secondary dominant and it's companion minor resolving to IV (still the expanded key of C ) Ted often encouraged me to see these temporary tonal shifts as remaining in the key, The "expanded key" or perhaps "extended key" is what I remember him calling it. I realize this may be picking nits but I thought I'd toss it in the mix.  Of course there are also real key changes that occur in tunes as well but I don't see this example as being a key change.
I hope this helps
Tim

guitarnerd24

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Posts: 13
Reply with quote  #4 
Ok, so it not a key change but a diff. way too look at chords and what's going on. just to make sure ive got this straight say we are in Am and the opening progression is C-Am-Dm-G instead of saying the progression is III-i-iv-VII you could say it is the I-vi-ii-V of the III
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #5 
Tim,
Yes, I agree....Ted didn't like to think of them as new key centers or modulations, but as you said, part of the "extended key."
--Paul


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TLerch

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Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #6 
Guitar Nerd,
 The progression you wrote could be analyzed either of the ways you wrote it, but to clarify, the next chord after the G would determine a lot. If the next is  Amin then the first analysis is ok,  but if it goes to C then the "of III" would be unnecessary. So the fragment that you present isn't complete enough to make a definitive analysis. Remember that the prog you presented is completely diatonic.  Perhaps if there was an E7 involved it could be more clearly placed in Amin.
The "V of" analysis is used when a non diatonic chord (Secondary Dominant) is inserted to heighten the resolution to the next chord, for instance if you had a progression that went: Amin A7 Dmin G7 C.    A7 could be understood as V of ii (Dmin) in the key of C major.
Make sense?
Check out Chord Chemistry and Modern Chord Progressions to get a good handle on these kinds of sounds. Sound is more important than analysis any way

Tim

guitarnerd24

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Posts: 13
Reply with quote  #7 
Thanks for the help it is making some sense. Ive got all his books just not sure how to go about studying them. Like Chord Chemistry do i just start at the essential chords and memorize them and go from there? or in Modern Chord Progressions do i play all the progressions and start to memorize the ones i like . i think i get the application part just take songs i know and use things from the books while playing them.
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