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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #1 
I forgot to point this out last month, but for the first quality, not in the very dissonant category, (and thus the first one that has synonyms written out for it):  1-2-1-8.   I think there's a typo it should read = Eb°Δ7+ no b3, b5 , not E natural.  This error was on both the original sheet and  "Method 3 Computer Completion by Quality".

Actually, I didn't want to nit-pick when the quantity and quality of the work James has done is so enormous! But if that table is gonna stick, then that typo should be corrected.

Again, Bravo! for everything!

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James

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi Kontiki,

Thanks for the correction.  I'll see about getting it changed in both chapters.  It could be a few weeks.  Once things are posted they are somewhat hard to change.  So if you find any more errors in the mean time, please let me know.  Actually, I would be very surprised if I didn't make a few more mistakes.  That was a lot of analysis.

James
James

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Posts: 310
Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Kontiki,

We have posted the corrected:

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/v_system/14_The_43_Four-Note_Qualities.pdf

and

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/v_system/17_Method_3_Computer_Completion_by_Quality.pdf

Thank you again for pointing out my mistake.  If you find any other errors, I welcome your pointing them out.

It's amazing how error free Ted's books and materials are.  Once in a rare while, there's a mistake.  He was an exceptional proofreader of his own work.  You and others here are helping me to try to maintain that same level of accuracy.
kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #4 
Was looking at #29.   I noticed two typos.  It should read E7+sus  and not Eb7+sus if you want it to be equivalent to C6/9 no 5, and the G6/9sus should have "no R" added to it.  
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James

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Reply with quote  #5 
Hi Kontiki,

Thanks for keeping me honest.

If you had found a problem with chord #30, I could have said, "Egad!"

But since you found a problem with chord #29, I'll just have to correct it.

I'll change it to E7sus+ and G6/9sus no R.

As before, there could be some delay getting the correction posted.

Thank you!
kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #6 
James, 
   That's very funny. So it means that you have to put "Dmolished" in your list for #30

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James

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Reply with quote  #7 
kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #8 
James, I was wondering what your take was on symmetric dominant chords based on the diminished scale. For example:

for #13. you wrote C7b9 no 5. for the root C. this is true but due to the symmetrical nature of #13, one can move up or down the chord in minor 3rds (not inversions but the exact same chord) and get four different chords for the root of C ( as well as Eb , Gb, and A). so for The root C:
#13 (1 3 6 2) = C7b9 no 5, C13b9 no R, C7b5 no R, and C(7)#9b9 no R no b7, and the same for each of the roots Eb, Gb, A.

maybe this omission was part of your simplifying process, but it might be a little confusing by omitting them. I came up with one of the alternate C dominant chords and when i checked the list I thought there must be some kind of mistake. And it took me some time to realize where the problem was. Actually any dominant chord that doesn't contain a natural 9, natural 4, #5, or major 7th, can be treated symmetrically this way and gives four different chords for each of four different roots minor thirds away.

As i said, this was probably part of your simplifying process, but i was wondering if Ted or you had a numerical procedure for identifying these chords, or did Ted make any special mention of them. any way thanks for reading this.

Mike

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James

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Reply with quote  #9 
Hi Mike,

The main thing to understand is that the list of 43 is really a list of qualities.  The only reason I put any roots at all in the list (and I almost didn't) was to show the relationship of the homonyms to each other.

I could have written:

13) 1 - 3 - 6 - 2     7b9 no 5 = 13b9 no R, 3 = 7#11 no R = (7)#9b9 no R, b7 =
11+ no R, b7 = °/9 = 7/11 no R = °7+ no b3 = m6Δ7 no 5

without any roots indicated.  But it's nice to know exactly what you're saying: that a m3 away from the 7b9 no 5 you can find the 13b9 no R, 3.

So for each of the 35 regular four-note qualities, I tried to pick the most common homonym and put that on the root C.  In this case, I felt that 7b9 no 5 was the most common name for this chord.  So I put it on the root C.  As soon as you put the 7b9 name on a root, it's no longer just a collection of intervals.  You've now frozen it to four specific notes: C E Bb Db.  For those particular four notes you get the actual entry in the table:

13) 1 - 3 - 6 - 2 C7b9 no 5 = Eb13b9 no R, 3 = Gb7#11 no R = A(7)#9b9 no R, b7 =
Ab11+ no R, b7 = Bb°/9 = G°7/11 no R = E°7+ no b3 = C#m6Δ7 no 5

This shows you the other names for the chord that has these specific four notes.

It also shows you the interval you can move the chord to get four different notes that can be thought of from the root C but will be 13b9 no R.  The trick is that you move in the opposite direction.  Here's how it works:  The entry says: C7b9 no 5 = Eb13b9 no R, 3.  Eb is a m3 higher than C.  You take your C7b9 no 5 that contains the notes C E Bb Db (R 3 b7 b9) and move it DOWN a m3.  Then you get C13b9 no R, 3 which are the specific notes: A Db G Bb (13 b9 5 b7).

Another, and maybe easier, way to think of this is that the entry:

13) 1 - 3 - 6 - 2 C7b9 no 5 = Eb13b9 no R, 3 = Gb7#11 no R = A(7)#9b9 no R, b7 =
Ab11+ no R, b7 = Bb°/9 = G°7/11 no R = E°7+ no b3 = C#m6Δ7 no 5

implies:

13) 1 - 3 - 6 - 2 Db7b9 no 5 = E13b9 no R, 3 = G7#11 no R = Bb(7)#9b9 no R, b7 =
A11+ no R, b7 = B°/9 = G#°7/11 no R = F°7+ no b3 = Dm6Δ7 no 5

I just moved all the roots up a half step.  You can do this again and again so that you get all 12 transpositions.  Then you'd have a complete list.  But a table that is already insanely huge would become insanely huger.  So I left this as implied.

I hope this clears things up.  Basically, I wanted to convey what you're talking about but in a concise way.  I admit it can get confusing.  I presented it in what I felt was the best way.

It's interesting that you bring this up because in April we will be releasing a quite intense page where Ted was investigating how many and which of the 35 regular qualities are diatonic to the overtone dominant scale.  On this page, Ted talks about "homonyms from the same root."  He's talking about exactly what you are: transpositions of four specific notes that can be re-analyzed from the root of the originating chord.  Quite tricky brain-wise.
kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #10 
James,
   I realize you're not going to do the same thing from each step of the chromatic scale (Db, E, Eb, ect.) but i was pointing out (and I think you understood me) that in this particular case (and in the case of all altered dominants based on the diminished scale)  one can have four different and useable dominant chords that relate to just C if you only use the formula  1 - 3 - 6 - 2 . This is not necessarily the case with all the 35 or 43 qualities, because if you move other chords in minor 3rd you'll get mostly unusable chords ( with notes outside the scale the first chord implied), whereas in this situation you get 4 very useable dominant chords which stay within the scale, which can also substitute for diminished chords as well. You can't do that witha 7#5 for example (you'll get the major 7th of C)
  Basically i was playing around with resolutions and I came up with a chord that had this formula, but when i transposed it to get a C root, it didn't match what you had on your list C7b9 no 5.  I then got more confused when i changed the chord and i still got formula #13 (
1 - 3 - 6 - 2)  for the root C!  I at first assumed there was a problem with the table, but then figured out I was dealing with a symmetrical altered dominant. This got me wondering about what was the best way to indicate these babies in the chart, and if there was a way to recognize them just by the intervals.


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James

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Posts: 310
Reply with quote  #11 
Hi Mike,

The homonyms you mentioned:

C7b9 no 5, C13b9 no R, C7b5 no R, and C(7)#9b9 no R no b7

are all in my list for chord 13, except C7b5 no R because I called it "7#11 no R" since it has both #11 AND 5.  I just put these homonyms on different roots in my list, roots that are a m3 apart.  Chords 9, 10, and 23 also have dominant chords on the roots C, Eb, Gb, and A so they also follow the pattern you're talking about.

Probably the most well known pattern is the b5 substitution.  That works because:

R     b5
b9   5
9     #5
9     13
3     b7
11   7
b5   R
5     b9
#5   9
13   #9
b7   3
7     11

The chord tone on the left turns into the chord tone on the right when transposing by a tritone.  The only problematic one is the 11 turning into the maj7.

The pattern you're talking about works the same way except now we're talking about transposing by a m3 (= half of a tritone).  Now the chord tones will transpose as follows:


R     #9    b5    13
b9    3      5      b7
9     11    #5     7
9     b5    13     R  
3     5      b7     b9
11   #5    7       9
b5   13     R      #9
5     b7    b9      3
#5   7      9       11
13   R     #9      b5
b7   b9     3       5
7     9      11      #5

All the lines that contain a 7 in them can be problematic.  Those lines all include the four tones you mentioned: 11, #5, 7, and 9.

So it's cool that you're aware of the pattern.  And you can look for dominant 7 chords in my list that are on roots a m3 apart to find others that follow the pattern, like chords 9, 10, and 23.

I bet there are other patterns, too.  I haven't thought of a way of pointing them all out.  Let me know if you come up with any ideas.
James

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Posts: 310
Reply with quote  #12 
Chord #29 has now been corrected in the V-System explanation chapters: The 43 Four-Note Qualities and Method 3 Computer Completion By Quality.  While I was at it, I also slightly changed chord #27 so what used to say "+sus"  now says "sus+".
Mikenc

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Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #13 

Hi there,

I've just begun studying this incredible resource but am struggling to get my head around 1-2-1-8 in the non dissonant category.

Using this, the notes i get are: C, Db, Eb, E and back to C.  Is this correct? Apologies for my ignorance but I can't see how this matches any of the chord homonyms written next to it - therefore I assume I must be doing something wrong!

Thanks

Michael

James

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Posts: 310
Reply with quote  #14 

Hi Michael,

 

Thank you for your interest in the 43 four-note chord qualities.  Sorry for any confusion in my explanation.

 

The important thing to understand is that the list of chord names can be on ANY root.  So for 1-2-1-8, I could have written:

 

mΔ9 no 5 = 13b9 no 3, 5 = (7)#9b9 no 5 = 7/6/#11 no 1, 3 =

(7) #9#11 no R, b7 = °Δ7+ no b3, b5 = °/11+ no R,b3 = °/9/11 no R,6

(This is the same thing as what I wrote in The 43 Four-Note Qualitites chapter but without roots.)

Using the notes, you derived from 1-2-1-8 (C, Db, Eb, and E), you would get the following:

DbmΔ9 no 5 = Eb13b9 no 3, 5 = C(7)#9b9 no 5 = F#7/6/#11 no 1, 3 =

A(7) #9#11 no R, b7 = E°Δ7+ no b3, b5 = G°/11+ no R,b3 = Bb°/9/11 no R,6

(This is the same thing that I wrote in the chapter but with roots a half step higher.)

Therefore, you can see that the notes I used in the chapter IN THIS CASE were B, C, D, and Eb instead of your C, Db, Eb, and E.  My notes are a half step lower than yours.  Now why did I do that?

The reason I put roots in at all is to show the relationship between the homonyms.  As you know it's helpful to know that Dm7 = F6 and to know that the roots for these two names are a minor third apart.  So that's why I put roots in the list.  To show the intervals between the roots of the homonyms.

Now if I show roots, there are 12 different ways to do it for each of the 43 qualities:  Dm7 = F6, Ebm7 = F#6, Em7 = G6, Fm7 = Ab6, etc.

Listing all 12 would make the gigantic list even larger.  So I picked the most common homonym and put it on the root C.  Then I listed the next most common homonym and so on.

The point is that you can take every listing in the chapter and transpose it up a half step, up another half step, and so on.  Then you'd have 12 listings instead of one for 1-2-1-8.

Does that make things clearer?  You are not the only person to be confused by this so if I ever re-write the chapter, I will try to improve the explanation.




 

Mikenc

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Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #15 
Hi James, thanks for responding so quickly.

That does make things a lot clearer - in fact, shortly after writing my question I began to have an inkling why I had got myself so confused.  Thank you very much for clearing things up!

And thanks for providing this fantastic resource - I look forward to exploring it further and further.

Michael
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