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DanSawyer

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks for posting those Barbie. I love seeing Ted's comments, especially when he disagrees with the author!

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Dan Sawyer, friend of Ted's.
barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #17 
Hi David,

Ted's interest in tonal harmony was purely on a intellectual level motivated by the influence this music had on early-mid 20th century film composition.
Our preferred listening & study was a combination of beauty & intellectual content, i.e. Max Steiner rather than Bernard Herman. Bach over Berg.

J.S.B. offered the ultimate in beauty & intellectual challenge. (for those who would argue that Bach was poor melodically, may I suggest his Siciliano from the Second Sonata for Harpsichord & Flute) we also spent many hours fascinated by Bach's "musical puzzles" - such as the canon from the Musical Offering.

Our collection of Tonal Harmony books is meager compared to other studies, I do not find H. Schenker here. We have Allen Forte's "Tonal Harmony in Concept & Practice" among a few others, all with minimal notation by Ted. Schoenberg was the one most studied by Ted .

Much of the intent of Ted's studies of ALL these books, at this time in his life, was not so much for new knowledge, but for better & more interesting ways to present the concepts of harmony to his students, as he felt that most of these books were inadequate in their presentations.

I am sorry to hear about your professor. Sounds as if he may have accomplished the task of presentation. If I do come across the Doug Green book, hopefully with notations by Ted, I'll let you know.

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Barbara Franklin
bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #18 
JSB poor melodically!?! Goodness, I had never heard that before. All the man did was write melodies! And combine them! Pfui to those people...

Allen Forte's book (a good one, I think) and the previously mentioned Aldwell/Schachter book are both influenced by Schenker's theories, without adopting them completely.

Thanks for taking to time to write back, Barbara.

David




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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #19 
Regarding my prior post,I just realized how confusing my first sentence must sound. As we were discussing Schoenberg, I was thinking of his atonal harmony studies.
Hence when I stated that Ted had a meager collection of "Tonal" Harmony books & only studied that area for it's influence on 20th century film composers, I meant "atonal harmony". A Big Whoops. Sorry about that. Hope this makes more sense & makes the other post make more sense. Or maybe I've confused everyone even more.

David,
At least a few times Ted had read to me (incredulously!) criticism of Bach's melodic line. I don't know what he was reading from, but it angered him enough to respond out loud, that's how I know. I haven't read nearly the amount of music books as Ted did, but I have read my share, along with many of the pages where Ted made notes, and still haven't come across any of the criticism. It's doubtful Ted would ever discard a book but.......

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Barbara Franklin
Deparko

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Reply with quote  #20 
"I continue to be impressed with Ted's (and your) broad musical interests and influences. Not many musicians have the patience to delve into Schoenberg's theoretical writings. Is there any Heinrich Schenker in the house? I wonder what Ted would have thought about his theories of tonal music."

Actually I remember showing Ted and discussing with Ted Schenker's book and concepts. He thought it was an interesting idea with the tonal center concepts (IIRC)..I was a Music Theory and Composition major in collage so I studied the Schenker book. In fact, I had a theory class where the text book was Schoenberg's Structual Functions of Harmony. One of my composition/theory teachers was a man named Dorrance Stalvey. I believe Dorrance studied with Stravinsky and was the director of Monday Evening Concerts at the Bing..Great guy.

I always showed Ted all my theory text books and he was always really interested in them..although he was not too keen on the serial stuff.

I remember asking Ted for a harmony book recommendation and he recommended the Piston books for traditional harmony.

Mark
Harmoniast

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Reply with quote  #21 
Yes, for self-instruction (and teaching) purposes Aldwell and Schachter is the book to go for. You need to be quite advanced in the study of theory to derive the benefits of Schoenberg or Schenker. (Allen Forte's harmony book is now out of print, and, excellent as it is, it has essentially been superseded by Aldwell and Schachter. Robert Gauldin's Harmonic Practice in Tonal Music covers much the same ground and is also excellent.)

Felix Salzer and Carl Schachter's Counterpoint in Composition is a good follow-up to the Aldwell and Schachter harmony text, although it could be studied concurrently after a few chapters of the latter. After this you might want to consult Alfred Mann's English translation of  (parts of) J. J. Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum, (re-titled The Study of Counterpoint), which presents species counterpoint in the context of the ecclesiastical modes. (Some Palestrina scores are a helpful supplement to this study - e.g. the Missa Papae Marcelli and the Missa Brevis.) Mann has also edited a companion volume, The Study of Fugue, which after a history of fugue provides selections from Fux, Marpurg, Albrechtsberger (one of Beethoven's teachers) and Martini.

In England the works of Ebenezer Prout have retained some currency. Most of them are long out of print, but they're fairly easy to find in secondhand bookshops. (There is a Greenwood Press reprint of Fugue.) I can't recommend the earlier editions of his Harmony (which are too bound up with the dubious acoustical theories of Alfred Day), but anything after and including the 16th edition is well-worth seeking out and consulting. This volume is followed by Counterpoint and Double Counterpoint and Canon. (This last is the most comprehensive volume on invertible counterpoint that I know of.) There is the aforementioned Fugue, followed by Fugal Analysis, a book which puts several fugues (by Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Cherubini, etc.) into open score and offers - as the title suggests - technical analysis and commentary. Then there is Musical Form (quite a controversial book, criticised by, among others, Stewart Macpherson) followed by Applied Forms (the nearest thing to the long-promised but never quite delivered volume on musical composition), and, to crown the series, the two volumes of The Orchestra. (Volume 1 describes the range and technique of the various instruments, while Volume 2 explains how they are combined in actual composition/orchestration.)

Incidentally, there is much information to be gained on fugue from Fugue by Roger Bullivant, even though it does not claim to be a textbook of fugal composition. Ted himself (in Modern Chord Progressions) recommended The Technique and Spirit of Fugue by George Oldroyd, which is just such a textbook (and, along with Prout, probably the best of its kind).

I have recently acquired a copy of Kent Kennan's (out of print) Counterpoint, of which I have heard and read good things, but I have only just begun it. It looks pretty comprehensive, however (to judge from the Contents), offering instruction in invertible counterpoint, canon and fugue.

Another interesting book (one of Edward Elgar's early favourites) is the little primer by Mozart, Practical Elements of Thorough-Bass.

I quite agree that Schoenberg's Fundamentals of Musical Composition is excellent - probably the best book of its kind. It's probably best deferred, however, until his Theory of Harmony, Structural Functions of Harmony and Preliminary Exercises in Counterpoint have been studied, and I'd defer study of these until Aldwell and Schachter (harmony) and Salzer and Schachter (counterpoint) have been worked through.

There are two good ways into Schenker studies (before studying the great man himself). First, there is Analysis of Tonal Music by Allen Cadwallader and David Gagne (far better, IMO, than the earlier Introduction to Schenkerian Analysis by Allen Forte and Steven Gilbert - a very confusing book), and then the recently-published Explaining Tonality by Matthew Brown.

kontiki

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Reply with quote  #22 
Barbara,

Would it be possible to eventually scan some more of  Ted's comments in the Aldwell and Schachter "Harmony and Voice Leading" book (especially the chapters near the end)? I find this helps get a better understanding on his way of thinking. 

Mike

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barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #23 
Hello Mike!  Sure, I will do that for you soon.  Please refresh my memory, if you will, and list the pages I've already scanned and posted? 

Also Mike, Ted did not read or comment on every page.  Usually when Ted read a book, he would not start at the beginning, but just go to a chapter of momentary curiosity or interest, then start skipping around.  Generally he would go back to the beginning at some point. However in many instances he never read an entire book and certainly not from front cover to back cover.
Only when he was at the beginning stages of study (late '60's early '70's) did Ted read some of the books from cover to cover - in chapter order - but at that time he didn't make extensive margin notes. 
The notes in the Adwell and Schacter end on page 229 -the book has 290 pages- the pages after 229 appear to be unread.    
I really appreciate your being so supportive of this site and for contributing so much to the forums. Barbara


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Barbara Franklin
kontiki

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Reply with quote  #24 
Barbara, 
  Thanks for responding so quickly. The pages I've seen posted are the ones you posted in this thread. They are: pages  104 105  110 & 111 from the Aldwell and Schachter "Harmony and Voice Leading" book.

P.S. Was Ted aware of the composer named Duruflé, or did he ever speak to you about him. He's one of my favorites.

Mike

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James

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Reply with quote  #25 
I just read through the earlier posts in this thread and it is quite interesting. I especially appreciate Harmoniast's post where he lists many interesting theory books. Some of these I have studied and some not.

I was particularly interested to learn that my friend Matthew Brown, who's a professor of music, has written a book on harmony and Schenker theory. If I could afford $100 for a book, I'd get it. I have read his Cornell doctoral thesis on Schenker theory, which he was nice enough to give me.

As Barbara has said, Ted had a lot of theory books and they were marked up with comments by him in the margins. One of the most interesting was a really obscure book - I can't remember the name or the author - that was an early statistical approach. The author had analyzed a lot of common practice music and determined percentages of how often progression occurred, how often retrogression, how often other types of cadences and chord successions occurred. This was long before computers were prevalent. Possibly today computers are being used to do analysis and statistical calculations.

I have been taught and my listening experience bears out that retrogression, V IV I or V II I, is quite rare in common practice music. Sometimes you see/hear V IV but then it returns to V; it doesn't go directly to I. Also, ambiguities of texture and embellishing tones can make it seem like retrogression but on closer inspection, it's not. So I expected the book to say that retrogression was very rare, occurring less than 1% of the time. But it had a higher percentage.

I'm sure I discussed this with Ted and my memory is a bit dim on this point but I believe Ted very much agreed that retrogression occurred more often than traditional theorists held. He agreed with this rare theory book.
barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #26 
James, I have that book, and another book similar as well!  Ted & I found it amazing that anyone would take the time to compile statistics like that, (other than Ted, if he had the time).  It IS very interesting and surprising in places!

Mike, As promised here are two more pages from Aldwell & Schachter that give a clear idea of how Ted thinks. I do hope his notes are readable on here. 

Some of these books are very fragile, this one in particular, hence, I cannot do this too often, at least not on my dinky scanner.  Maybe there is another way?

If so James, I could scan the book you refer to: Bach's Harmonic Progressions (1,000 Examples) by Kent Gannett, there is also Melodic Index to the Work of J.S. Bach by May de Forest Payne - these are grouped by their first three intervals! 

Nonetheless.  Enjoy!   Barbara
I hope I can upload the 2 pages in order - I always get this mixed up.

Attached Images
jpeg Adwell&Schacter_pg229.jpg (1017.40 KB, 51 views)
jpeg Adwell&Schachter_pg228.jpg (668.10 KB, 42 views)


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Barbara Franklin

James

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Posts: 310
Reply with quote  #27 
Thanks for sharing the scans, Barbara. My Aldwell and Schachter is falling apart, too. The bindings weren't very good on these books.

Big, big thanks for identifying that interesting and obscure theory book, Bach's Harmonic Progressions (1,000 Examples) by Kent Gannett! Of course, a quick check on amazon shows that this book is out of print and unavailable from any used sellers. Please take good care of this rare book. Don't worry about scans if you're concerned. But if you do scan it, the page showing the frequency of types of cadences is fascinating.
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