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gaz638

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Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #1 
i have just gotten schoenbergs book on the theory of harmony and wondered if nay members of the forum have read any of the book and have any pointers for me/wish to discuss topics in it. And obviously if ted had any interest in it. I will also post anything i think is relevant to this forum i learn from the book.

gaz

Jordan

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Reply with quote  #2 

Is it Structural Functions of Harmony?


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Jordan
Stringfellow

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Reply with quote  #3 

Don't know it Gaz, but would be interested in anything you find.

Tris

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String
bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #4 


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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #5 
Schoenberg's "Theory of Harmony" is very dense and technical, and his writing style will probably leave you glassy eyed.  His and Schenker's books are not very pedagogic and were written as theoretical treatises (i.e., they're not good teaching/learning sources).  While interesting, and important, historically in the study of music theory (I particularly like his take on the origin of the Neapolitan 6th), I would suggest the Aldwell and Schachter "Harmony and Voice Leading" as a great book for anyone on this list (far better, in my opinion, than Ottman's book that Ted apparently used).

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
gaz638

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Reply with quote  #6 
its funny because in a conversation with schoenberg i have he says that if people want to learn music they should learn from the people that influenced him, rather than his studies...interesting maybe he was just being modest. I havent started reading it yet i think i will today on the car ride to berklee. Ill keep you updated and will look up the neapolitan sixths and if its relevant i can post the info in the neapolitan sixths topic.


gaz
DanSawyer

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Reply with quote  #7 
I suggest Lyle Murphy's Equal interval System. Ted studied it, as did Oscar Peterson and many others.

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Dan Sawyer, friend of Ted's.
tedstafford

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Posts: 38
Reply with quote  #8 
Schoenberg has a wonderful little book called Fundamentals of Musical Composition. I think it's a work of rare genius. Lots of great stuff about how to compose melodies, from the tiniest phrase to the construction of complete themes. All the examples are Beethoven and he also takes you through the composition process with examples written for the book. He also discusses accompaniment and the elements of larger forms. Compared to other essays by Schoenberg, I found this book much more accessible.

Also, I'd like to heartily endorse the Aldwell and Schacter text as well as Walter Piston's Harmony which I have found extremely lucid and valuable.

Good luck!
ted


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music is the best
Bob

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Reply with quote  #9 

Although it was never discussed; Ted did have a copy of "Structural Functions of Harmony". I remember seeing it at lesson. Ted collected music theory books like some collect baseball cards.


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Bob Holt
MarkThornbury

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Posts: 79
Reply with quote  #10 
Wow! This is a serious trip through the wayback machine for me, just hearing the title again...In short, around '80-81 I was studying harmony & counterpoint privately with a gentleman in Sherman Oaks, CA named Abbey Frasier, who had been a student of Schoenberg, (and teacher of the successful Alan Sylvestry) and was sort of spoon-feeding me the ideas from that book(which was just before the translation came out).  Abbey could read German, and would periodically pull out the original text.

When the translation became available, I bought one right away, and was suprised at how closely Abbey was following the text, although I was definitely getting the "reader's digest" version.

I highly recommend reading it, and savoring it for what it is (while being aware of what it is not!). This is a work from an artist, a genius from late Nineteenth-century Vienna, a place which is more than a trifle aware of its luminous musical heritage. It is a translation, and according to my late teacher, a very good one, but culteral references can be lost, and lucidity is not part of Schoenberg's style, at least not in this text.  I found his view on the minor mode very interesting, along with a few other aspects of modulation... he also tends to view secondary dominants to be chromatic alterations derived through counterpoint, rather than the usual "V ov V" concept which I had learned.

Anyway, it is not an easy read, and was meant to be pondered as the ruminations of a rather eccentric genius. Most who have read it would agree that it really isn't a proper textbook, and that the other aformentioned texts would be better suited if you haven't gone through the whole SATB part writing experience.

Re-read it after you have gone through a better-formatted textbook, and it will be a better experience, IMVHO...

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Esto sicut Theodorus! (Be like Ted)
barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #11 
Ted had a collection of Harmony & Theory books that would rival any music store! There was no particular book he gave preference to over any other. All offered something valuable, in turn, all had their faults (in Ted's learned opinion).

The only Schoenberg book here (that I can find) is "Style and Ideas" which neither of us have (had) gotten around to yet.

I don't know what musical knowledge you are seeking. Below are some examples of how Ted felt regarding the information on the specific pages I am posting.

Ted ALWAYS made notes on the pages. The 1st excerpts are from "Harmony and Voice Leading" by Aldwell & Schachter. The 2nd are from Robert Ottman.

Attached Images
jpeg Aldwell&Schacher.jpg (293.12 KB, 210 views)
jpeg A&S2.jpg (233.15 KB, 384 views)
jpeg A&S3.jpg (278.84 KB, 251 views)
jpeg A&S4.jpg (272.70 KB, 169 views)


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Barbara Franklin

barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #12 
These are the Ottman: (sorry they are upside down) I tried to rotate the page but it wouldn't stay like that.

Attached Images
jpeg Ottman1.jpg (640.55 KB, 184 views)
jpeg Ottman2.jpg (299.16 KB, 97 views)
jpeg Ottman3.jpg (215.51 KB, 90 views)


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Barbara Franklin

bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #13 
It's fascinating to read Ted's comments on these pages, Barbara; thanks for going to the trouble to post them. The Ottman pages on phrases and periods cause me to wonder if you or Ted were familiar with Douglass Green's book "Form in Tonal Music."


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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #14 
Hi David B!

I am not familiar with the book you refer to, nor can I locate a copy here, so I can't say if Ted was or not.
re: the Ottman - I just chose randomly a page with Ted's notation, which happened to be about periods & phrases. I have noticed a chapter on this subject in every harmony book. why do you ask?

And.... by the way - I did find Schoenberg's Structural Functions...." I remember a long way back one day Ted & I were playing with Tone Rows - but I don't remember which book we referred to for the "rules".

Anyway I have posted a few pages of Schoenberg's S.F.of H. with Ted's notes. from the chapter Principles of Harm. which are quite interesting. Enjoy. B.

Attached Images
jpeg Schoenberg1.jpg (398.60 KB, 239 views)
jpeg Schoenberg2.jpg (954.23 KB, 135 views)


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Barbara Franklin

bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #15 
Thanks for looking, Barbara. Doug Green was my doctoral advisor, and I was his last dissertation student before he died of cancer back in the late 90s. Brilliant, sweet, gentle man, and his book on form and analysis is a classic.

I continue to be impressed with Ted's (and your) broad musical interests and influences. Not many musicians have the patience to delve into Schoenberg's theoretical writings. Is there any Heinrich Schenker in the house? I wonder what Ted would have thought about his theories of tonal music.

Cheers!

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
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