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Deparko

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Posts: 94
Reply with quote  #1 
Greetings Everyone,

One upside of this horrible pandemic is that I'm playing boatloads of guitar. Getting some amazing practice time. Exploring a ton of new sounds, gear, guitars, etc. One area of study is of course Ted's work, and I've been going down all of his studies, highlighting the pages I love (and there are a ton). 

One area I'm just in love with is his discussion/exercises around "Expanded Diatonicism". Can anyone point me in a direction that provides more theory/material on this subject? I'm spending a lot of my time 'upgrading' my playing to a more contemporary and just love those sounds. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated or please provide additional areas of study to gain the "new" modern/hip sound (chords/voicings/lines).

Sincere thanks and hope everyone is well,
Mark
BigMickey

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Posts: 32
Reply with quote  #2 
Hello Mark,

Hoping all is well.  At the Ted Greene site https://www.tedgreene.com/teaching/harmony.asp
you'll find entries specific to expanded diatonicism.  For example, "Expanded Diatonic Colors, Expanded Diatonicism – Progression Using Only R 3 5 9," and "Introduction to Expanded Diatonicism," to name a few. 

I have also found useful those sheets like "Vocabulary Reference Page – The 12 ii-V Groups within a Major Key," as well as the favorable matings references.

I am certain that there are others on the forum who can provide you with a much more definitive view on the topic.

Best regards - 
Mickey
BigMickey

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Posts: 32
Reply with quote  #3 
Mark, also see this earlier, well-engaged thread on the topic
https://forums.tedgreene.com/post/Harmonization-Studies-5331814?&trail=15

Mickey
James

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Posts: 329
Reply with quote  #4 
As you know, "diatonic" means sticking to a scale.  So if I'm playing diatonically in C major, I'm not going to play any sharp or flat notes.  If I did, those would be chromatic.  I'm going to stick to only the notes in the C major scale when I play diatonically.

So what does "expanded diatonic" mean?  If we expand beyond the notes of the parent scale, aren't we playing chromatically?

I can't remember for sure but I think Ted used the term "expanded diatonicism" for what others call mixture.  Mixture means mixing major and minor tonalities.  So if I play using notes and harmonies from the C major scale but I also mix in notes and chords from the C natural minor scale, then I'm using mixture.  Classical composers like Haydn and Mozart did this quite a bit.

If you play a phrase or two strictly in C major and then a few in C natural minor and then back to C major, you're playing diatonically and just modulating briefly to the parallel minor.  But if you actually mix in C minor harmony during the C major passage, you're using mixture.

So: I bIII ii V I bVII IV V I, for example.  That kind of thing.

And quite a bit of popular music in various styles uses mixture, not just classical.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #5 
Another easy way to look at Ted's Expanded Diatonicism is to take a diatonic melody and play it with chords that are not diatonic to that key of the melody.
And often those chords are unique open-sounding chords, like add9 or 6/9 or major 13 or minor 11, and especially Ted's "Bass-Enhanced Triads" voicings.
(See:  http://www.tedgreene.com/teaching/chords.asp and scroll down to the "Bass-Enhanced Triads" section.)
 
Use the same chord form and move it around on the fretboard, keeping the soprano notes diatonic to the melody.
Think of parallel movements, but not necessarily exclusively.
This will give it a fresh, modern sound.

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Deparko

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Posts: 94
Reply with quote  #6 
yes, I see the add 9's or 6/9 use, especially on the b3 or traversing in minor 3rds..just trying to see if there is a wider theory or use. Did Ted get it from the film composers. I hear a lot of contemporary jazz employing those progressions..It's something I really want to inject into my playing. I've looked at some of the above mentioned studies..will continue to dig. thanks  btw...did see a reference in this book  https://www.amazon.com/Dodecaphonic-Tonality-Tonal-System-Century/dp/1604146753   . will continue to research. 
James

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Posts: 329
Reply with quote  #7 
As I said above, I'm pretty sure that Ted used the term "expanded diatonicism" for mixture of major and minor.   That means you have scale tones 1 2 b3 3 4 5 b6 6 b7 7.  You do not play tones b2 and #4.  Diatonic means you are still restricted, it's just you are now restricted to both the major and minor scales combined.  You are still in a key.  There's a tonal center.  There is still progressive harmonic progression like ii V I but it's embellished with chords from the parallel minor.  Or you're in a minor key and it's embellished with chords from the parallel major.

It's not the same as just moving nice sounding chords like add9, 6/9 around anywhere you like by sound but without a firm key center.  That is fun and great to do.  But not the same thing.

You can read about classical theory of mixing modes in chapter 22 of Aldwell and Schachter's Harmony and Voice Leading, Volume 2.  Ted had these and other music theory books and he scribbled all over them in the margins with comments and arguments.  I sometimes used to read these while waiting for my lesson.   At times he quite strongly disagreed with traditional theory.
Deparko

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Posts: 94
Reply with quote  #8 
ok..I see, there is a ton of stuff in the "Bass-Enhanced Triads" sections.  I think I'll live there for a while :-)_
Deparko

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Posts: 94
Reply with quote  #9 
Thank you James, very good explanation. Example: establishing a major key and throw in a bIII+ 
kontiki

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Posts: 265
Reply with quote  #10 
There's a bII here:
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/harmony/ExpandedKeyChordMove_TedGreene_2005-01-18.pdf


I don't think the concept is easily defined. But I like Paul's insight; the same idea occured to me as I was thinking about it.

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James

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Reply with quote  #11 
Yes, there is a bII in that brief example that Ted gave to a particular student.  But Ted did not write that the example was expanded diatonicism.  I think Paul gave the file the name ExpandedChordKeyMove.  True, it is using some of the same kinds of chords (as well as some nice contrary motion).  The melody is not diatonic to the key of A major, although it is diatonic to the combined major and minor.  So I don't know if Ted would have called this expanded diatonicism.

Anyway, I remember in a lesson Ted using some term, and I think it might have been "expanded diatonicism" but I'm not sure.  After he described what he meant by it, I said, "Oh, you mean 'mixture.'"  And he said, "Yeah."  Both he and I knew the term "mixture" from Aldwell and Schachter's theory book.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #12 
James, I think what you're referring to is what Ted called "Expanded Key" - to include parallel minor chords and tones.  Expanded Diatonicism is, I believe, different from that.
Nevertheless, it is subject that can be approached various ways and be interpreted differently.  The end result is what we should be striving for, and that is an interesting, unique sound that's harmonization is free from the constraints of keys or diatonic structures.  If it sounds good then it obviously works.

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James

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Reply with quote  #13 
Paul and Kontiki, yes, maybe I'm wrong.  Do you know anywhere where Ted stated what he meant by "expanded diatonicism" or "expanded key?"
kontiki

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Posts: 265
Reply with quote  #14 
Well it doesn't seem likely that it will be possible to prove one thing or the other. There isn't a lot of info. There are only a couple of sheets that have "expanded" in their title on the website, and there was just one other that I found with a bII, but it didn't say expanded on the sheet itself (just the name of the file). But to my ears it sounds like the other expanded examples. And why would the file name have the "expanded" title? Paul could probably answer that, but i suspect that some, if not all, were categorized by Barbara, which leads me to think that they were organized by Ted in his files under the header "expanded diatonicism". He mentions to Mark in a lesson that he has a category in his files with this name.
Ted also says in the same lesson that there are 4 levels to expanded diatonicism, but gets interrupted before he can elaborate. I suspect the bII comes in on one of these other levels. And after all the bII can and does occur in major through mixture, since it is a typical sound, and alteration, in minor.


To be fair he quickly defines what seemes to be level 1 as bIII bVI and bVII, and that some people call them "borrowed" chords but that he doesn't like that name since he doesn't feel he's borrowing from minor or anywhere for that matter. Then he goes on to say "12-tone tonal music" and "12-tone pop", I imagine he's implying that all 12 tones could be used in expanded diatonicism.

But all this is just a lot of speculation on my part, and really doesn't matter at the end of the day since nobody will omit or add a bII just because of a definition or rule. If it sounds good...

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #15 
Here's a page that was probably missed...it can be found in the "Other" section under the "Ear-Training" header:
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/other/Ear-TrainingProgressionsOrganizedBySoprano_TedGreene_1985-09-07_8_9.pdf

Page 2 and page 3 deal with "stage one" and "stage two" of Expanded Diatonicism.
Page 4 and 5 is about discusses "Special Expanded Diatonic: Lydian" 
To be honest, I never worked thru these pages, but merely provided a text translation page for those who have difficulty reading Ted's handwriting.
There's another page that goes with this series "Special Expanded Diatonic: Diminished" - but I don't have that file.  I have it marked as "missing" and to be requested from the TG Archives sometime in the future.


The file organization for his Expanded Diatonicism folder that was done by either Ted or Barbara (or both) are listed as follows (I think these can also be found in the back of My Life with the Chord Chemist) and they have all been posted:

EXPANDED DIATONICISM

Using Major Add 9’s and Minor add 9’s, 1987-01-01
Multi-Tonal Major Key Colors: “Diatonic Mixtures” or “Mixed Majors” (1978-07-19) 1989-12-17
Introduction to Expanded Diatonicism:  Extensions on bIII & bVII, 1989-07-17
Progressions Using Only R 3 5 9 & R 3 5 9 w/Others, 1987-08-31
Examples Using Add9th Chords in I bVI IV II V, 1977-07-17
Common Progressions for Taping, Ear-training & More: Using bIII as friend of iii, 1991-05-05
Common Progressions for Taping, Ear-training & More: More use of bVII, 1991-05-02 

The last two on the list are in the "Other" Ear-Training section:
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/other/CommonProgressionsForTaping_Ear-TrainingAndMore_TedGreene_1991.pdf

And check out this one too:  http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/chords/ExpandedDiatonicColor_TedGreene.pdf            


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