PLEASE REGISTER TO POST. Also, be sure to visit the main website www.tedgreene.com

**************************************************************************************
Buy NOW on Amazon
My Life with The Chord Chemist
A Memoir of Ted Greene, Apotheosis of Solo Guitar
Available at amazon.com

*Check it out!!!

VISIT OUR NEW SUPPORT PORTAL
Your contributions keep the site healthy and growing


More information HERE

Official Ted Greene Archives Blog

Ted Greene Archives on YouTube

Join Ted on FACEBOOK

NEW! Follow on TWITTER

..:: The Ted Greene Forums ::..
Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
Dan52Tele

Registered:
Posts: 43
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi there, this chord has been a struggle for me in terms of where it would work in terms of substitution or common use, as i know it has a very unique sound i just wondered if any of you more experienced players may be able to guide me.

Thanks
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,711
Reply with quote  #2 

The few times I use a minor (major7th) chord is: 

1) at the end of a song in a minor key, for an extra melancholy kick to the minor sound.

2) in a passing phrase, like Am - Am(maj 7) - Am7 - Am6 (or D9).  This is created from the descending line A - G# (or Ab) - G - F# over the Aminor sound. (We all know this from the beginning of Stairway to Heaven).

3) in chord-melody playing when the melody is the major 7th, and the chart calls for a minor chord (obviously!).

--Paul


__________________
--Paul
Dan52Tele

Registered:
Posts: 43
Reply with quote  #3 
Thanks for you ideas Paul.

Dan
YoungBlood

Registered:
Posts: 66
Reply with quote  #4 
Hopefully I'm correct when I am remembering a synonym for the minMaj7 chord, as also being a Major7#5?
So you can use it when you want to go up a fourth as well; "All the Things You Are" when you go from Abmaj7 to Dbmaj7, you can use the minMaj7 chord-but it's by another name due to the function.

Here's how it would look...

Fm7 / / / - Bbm7 / / / - Eb7 / / / - Abmaj7 / Abmaj7#5 / Dbmaj7 / / / etc....




__________________
EXPERIMENT. Patience and determination are key.
klasaine

Registered:
Posts: 151
Reply with quote  #5 
As to using the maj.7#5 ... Sometimes you'll see it written as maj.7b6. Either way the maj7#5 chord can sound beautifully haunting as a static I chord or moving in whole steps.
An example would be the Jobim tune "Dindi". The 1st two bars are Eb to Db. You can alter and extend ('enrich' - to use TG terminology) those two changes to be Ebmaj7#5 to Dbmaj7#5. Or use it on just the Eb.
It'll work on "Killer Joe" as well (sub for the C7 - Bb7). It's a little jarring at first but pretty cool once you (and the rest of the band) get used to it.

In my experience, anytime you write that chord on a chart, whether maj7#5 or maj7b6, expect some questions.

__________________
ken lasaine
klasaine

Registered:
Posts: 151
Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks Rafikenn.

Those are all really beautiful and functional.


__________________
ken lasaine
bishopdm

Registered:
Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #7 
Help me out, y'all. I can see where a major7#5 would be synonymous with a min/maj9 without the root, but not with a min/maj7. And are you suggesting that the two are interchangeable or just noting that they share some notes? I guess I'm missing the point.
__________________
David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
YoungBlood

Registered:
Posts: 66
Reply with quote  #8 
Take an Emaj7#5 chord on the seventh fret "spelled:" E (root), G# (third), B# [Augmented Fifth](C), Eb (Maj seven).

That same chord (synonym) used as a DbminMaj using the same spelling as above:
E (Minor third), Ab aka G# (fifth), C aka B# (maj7) and Eb (ninth).

It's not so much that's it's a direct minMaj7 chord, because it includes the ninth extension. But you can still use it as you would any other extended chord; a Major9 instead of a Maj7 or 6/9.
If you would like to omit the ninth, and replace it with another minor third, just raise your index finger up a fret thus making the Eb, an E natural and it's now the minor third instead of the ninth.That chord would also be an E7+ chord- and you could also use the F#7+, Ab7+, Bb7+, C7+  and D7+ for that. 
That sort of sounded like that part, in Ted's "Chord Chemistry," where he rattled off about 30 different chords and said 'That's a whole lot of chords for just plain old C7!' Cool!
However, I'm nowhere near Ted.....yet?!?!   

Quote:
are you suggesting that the two are interchangeable or just noting that they share some notes?


Any time a chord shares the same notes, you can interchange the two. You may hear it differently at first, and not care for it, but for the most part you can use them as the same chord. Similar to C7b9+, Bbmin7b5, Gb9, Dbmin6 all being the same chord. If you see a chart (another Ted explanation from Chord Chemistry!), that has Bbmin7b5 in it (no root)- you know that's the same as a Gb9. So try to replace that chord with another from the dominant 7 family in the key of Gb.....Gb13, Gbsus, Gb7b9+....or whatever your ears says it does. You could try it as a Bbmin7b5 WITH a root note.
In some cases, we're able to "throw theory out the window."

__________________
EXPERIMENT. Patience and determination are key.
bishopdm

Registered:
Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #9 
I guess I don't see the need for all the fuss. I find it simpler, and ultimately more musical, to consider the min/maj7 in Paul's example above (Amin-Amin/maj7-Amin7-etc.) to be a vertical sonority that results from linear motion within a harmony (except in the case of the final maj/min7 (or min/maj9) in a minor piece that Paul mentions above, which just sounds so cool.). And the maj7#5 in YoungBlood's example from "All the Things You Are" sounds to me like a vertical sonority that arises from linear chromatic motion between two harmonies (an inner voice that moves E–E#–F#). Saying that the min/maj9 and the maj7#5 share some notes is, of course, a correct statement—I can't disagree with you there. But consider the middle chord in the progression Amaj7-Amaj7#5–Dmaj7. You could call it an F#min/maj9 without a root, but why would you want to?
__________________
David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,711
Reply with quote  #10 
Hi guys,
I was just listening to the Mark Levy Lesson with Ted on 1992, April 16.  During that lesson (tape 2) they were re-harmonizing "Invitation" and looking at all the possibilities of different chords that could be used in addition to the minor chord.  A very interesting lesson.  At the end of tape 2, Ted talks briefly about the minor/major 7th chord.  Unfortunately the tape ends abruptly and we don't hear all of Ted's comments, but here is what I transcribed:

"Minor/major 7th is a dual-personality chord.  It's either extremely necessary to be functional, to be palatable, or it stands alone as a chord of starkness or grief.
If you're playing just a minor/major 7th...[plays example]...if there's ever a thing where people say minor chords are 'sad' this would make them think that, because minor/major 7ths do sound sad.  It just sounds so lonely and forlorn by themselves.  But put them into functional harmony...[plays example]...I hear romance more than sadness...at least the potential of romance..."  [END of Tape]

If you don't have these recordings, I'd recommend you download them!  Great stuff!
--Paul

__________________
--Paul
DanSawyer

Registered:
Posts: 289
Reply with quote  #11 
I look at it as a minor chord with major 7. It can sometimes be the same as a dominant 9 /#11 chord. (Am/maj7 = D9 #11). The most famous song i can think of featuring this chord is Harlem Nocturne. Minor/maj 7 and minor 6 chords both remind me of music from the 1930s.

One thing i disagree with is the notion that chords can be inherently "sad", happy, etc. There is no doubt that certain chords arouse emotions in us, but these things are culturally learned. For example, there are many mid-eastern songs of joy in minor keys. Some of these are very fast and designed for dancing. To the people of Romania or other such countries, minor chord sounds do not have a sad connotation. Dissonance is another thing entirely and is governed by universal physical laws. A dissonant chord will sound that way to any human ear.


__________________
Dan Sawyer, friend of Ted's.
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,711
Reply with quote  #12 
Dan,
I agree that chords sounds and the emotions they evoke are usually learned.  On some of the "Levy Lesson" recordings Ted also said that he did not think of minor chords as "sad."  He also said he never thought of the blues as evoking pain, suffering, hard times,etc.  Ted said that the blues always made him feel happy.  I never liked the saying, "Ya gotta pay your dues if you want to sing the blues."
I think the point Ted was making about the minor/major 7th is that it does have a more heavy, serious, or perhaps "sad" sound compared to other minor chords.  He said that minor 7th chords, especially if treated as a Dorian flavor, has a very soft, warm sound. 
Ted was great at putting words and feelings, or even mental images to sounds.  He once was talking to me about a certain progression and he said, "When you hear that you can just see a guy walking down the street with a grin on his face, perhaps he just got a new pair of shoes."
-Paul

__________________
--Paul
klasaine

Registered:
Posts: 151
Reply with quote  #13 
I never got the 'happy/sad' chord thing either - it's a completely culturally "learned" thing - but I also feel that that applies to dissonance as well.
In the middle ages major 3rds and certaily dominant 7th's were considered dissonant. Especially the dom.7th, due to it's tri-tone.
But the b7th as well as the #4 are also both in the natural overtone series (though in the overtone series the flat 7 is a little 'flatter' - we've "equal tempered" it). TG never called a #11 an 'altered' chord. It's in nature, how could it be 'altered'?
Today, everyone who even just listens to music a little bit hears as "normal" or consonant, dom.7th chords and maj.#11 chords - they're all over rock and pop ... not to mention jazz and sountrack music.
I'll certainly "call" something dissonant from an academic standpoint but these days for me to actually "hear" it as dissonant it has to be just the most insane cluster.
I also was one of the 100 electric guitarists to do that Glenn Branca "Sym. #13 for 100 elec. guitars" last year at Disney Hall. Some would say pretty dissonant. Some others would say absolutely horrible. I thought it was beautiful. Go figure. "Learned" consonance. Your mileage may vary.   


__________________
ken lasaine
rafikenn

Registered:
Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #14 
 i believe a man from the middle ages heard the 3rd,
much like we do,physically that is..since the ear hasent changed
in much longer time.what has changed,drastically[.. and fortunatly]
is the content of the mind,associations etc.so to his or her ear
the brightness and beauty where associated with the devil,that's what created dissonance..not the sound.
when we read what Plato had to say about the modes,we can understand
him,in spite of having been brought up in a different audial inviorment,due to the ear and emotions being almost similar.i remember a fantastic lesson
Ted was giving a music teacher,where he analyzed the evolution of musicality.
he started with infants,how they response best to major diatonic triads,high register,bouncy in the pocket tempoes etc.tean agers,according to Ted,suffer from a conflict between what they actually love to what they feel the are suppose to love..
in Mark levi's lessons,Ted says the ear hears the upper note in a perfect forth[when out of context] as the root[!]than adds..it's almost a proof god exists..i love Ted.
Rafi ,teds friend and student.
kontiki

Registered:
Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #15 
Here I am reviving an old thread again, but I seemed to have missed out on all the fun:

I find that one way a  Min/maj7  sounds very niceis in the place of minor iv chord or over a bVII7(play a 5th down, which is the same as the iv min/maj7) chord in major.

there are countless tunes that feature minor iv or bVII7   but i'll just give two examples.

in "There will never be another you"  key of Eb: in bars 9 & 10   often the chords there are Abmaj7  going to Db7  .  One could play a Abm/maj7   over the Db7. I think it sounds great. it also corresponds with the G in the melody.

in "The days of wine and roses"  key F:   in bars 7 & 8  the chords there are usually Bbm7  going to Eb7   so it's a iv -VII7 progression. so a Bbm/maj7 sounds nice  there, and lo and behold it coincides with the melody at that point.

__________________
Dmolished = Egads
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

YOUR SUPPORT MAKES A DIFFERENCE :: DONATE