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kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #16 
I share both Keith's and Tim's views on the matter. These are, in my opinion, two valid explanations and I've often found myself favoring one or the other depending on the day. Tim, the only consideration i would add is that the co-minor, that you very aptly said was a stop along the way could be considered a V9sus (or a type of Vsus) and therefore "in theory" we could say that the biii°(i°) is really a V7b9 of V and does actually go directly to V (albeit a sus form of V then resolving to a normal V). I hope this isn't too confusing.

Another possible explanation is one of voice leading:

If we take the progression  I(maj7)/3  -  biii° (i°)  -  ii   

(in Bb) we get a common tone (pedal) of Bb (the tonic of the key) and chromatic descending minor 10ths (or thirds) which are a very "familiar" sound (especially when heard in the outer voices). Like the typical ending of an old authentic type blues, where there are descending chromatic major 6ths (the inversion of the minor 3rds or 10ths) to the I7.
 
An interesting variation on this voice leading type of thing (with a substitution for the Diminished) is:

I(triad, doubled 5th)/3   -  bVI7/5   -   ii

in this  progression (very similar to the one above) there's the same voice movements but now in addtion there's a contrary motion chromatic ascending voice. In Bb that voice would be F  Gb  G

by the way these progressions can be played starting on other bass notes of the same chords. for example:    I   -    i° (root position)  - ii/b7

P.S. i didn't write 7's on all of my ° ,but they're meant.

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TLerch

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Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #17 
"Tim, the only consideration i would add is that the co-minor, that you very aptly said was a stop along the way could be considered a V9sus (or a type of Vsus) and therefore "in theory" we could say that the biii°(i°) is really a V7b9 of V and does actually go directly to V (albeit a sus form of V then resolving to a normal V). I hope this isn't too confusing."
Actually Mike, not confusing at all in fact, pretty much another way of saying what I was trying to convey, perhaps a clearer way.. io7 = viio7 of V7 and viio7 = V7b9 of V7
and yes I agree that voice leading pretty much trumps all else with regard to the rubber meeting the road, gravitational pull toward a destination.
thanks
Tim

kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #18 
Tim, yes i understood that from your first post and I completely agree. That's why I said the ii could be considered a form of V (V9sus no root). Instead of trying to find a reason why a ii is there we can just remove the problem by calling it a V :     I/3  -   i°7/b3(or  V7b9 of V7) -  V9sus/5 (no root)

looks too complicated written like that   

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TLerch

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Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #19 
I wonder if there is a music theory term for this type of situation, specifically when a dim7 or Dom7b9 is used to set up an arrival but there is an intermediary chord (co minor) in between. Seems like there ought to be  a cool name for it like a" buttinsky cadence" or  "I just need to make a few stops" resolution.  ;  )
Keith

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Posts: 105
Reply with quote  #20 
I studied with Aloudin Mathew for a while, and he called it "foreplay".
LOL
Keith
Keith

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Posts: 105
Reply with quote  #21 
Now that I think of it ii, and IV are pretty much the same thing, so maybe IV play wasn't ii far off the mark.
Sorry
K
TLerch

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Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #22 
I like it!

klasaine

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Posts: 151
Reply with quote  #23 
Whenever I see a I to Iº7 I'll try subbing the I dim7 out for a bV-7b5 to VIIb9.
Ex: F to Fº = F to B-7b5 E7b9. I try to keep the top note of the chords the root of the I and the I dim, so in my example F's on top.

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ken lasaine
TLerch

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Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #24 
ah Yes, the Stella By Starlight solution, because of the popularity of this sub it is very difficult to find any examples of io7 in most modern fake books. I attribute this to the "great io7 purge of the 40s". When the bv half diminished was very commonly used to get rid of what was at the time considered the "old fashioned sounding" io7. Its fun to try and find these replacements and go back to the original diminished harmony since it sounds warm and a little quaint to me and I like it very much. TG was the one who taught me that the original opening chord to Stella was io7!  So I guess Ken that we are balancing this issue out, you go for bv half diminished and I go  for io7 : )
all the best
 Tim
klasaine

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Posts: 151
Reply with quote  #25 
I actually like the Iº7 too. But no piano players EVER play it anymore at least on a jazz gig - lol! (maybe Barry Harris, but he also still plays m6 chords). They, the Idim7 chords, probably sound better on a guitar - ?

Solo, I'll play the opening chord of Stella (if I'm feeling limber and brave)
Low to high: Bb F G Db E A  or, if not so limber (but dark of heart) an A/Bb
Bb A C# E (A)

*I'm loving my new CC pkup in a Tele. Your vids helped me make a decision that I'll never regret - thanks! 

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ken lasaine
TLerch

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Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #26 
I love them (io7) and think they are a bit of a lost sound, love your Stella chord! Glad you like the CC.
Keith

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Posts: 105
Reply with quote  #27 
Ella does a beautiful arrangement of Over the Rainbow. It sounds like I, bv7b5, VII7b9, iii7.
 I, idim7, iii7 sounded good too.
K
klasaine

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Posts: 151
Reply with quote  #28 
'Rainbow' is another good one for diminished harmony.
The original first chord is an Aϕ (A1/2 dim or m7b5) to D7b9 (Ebº) - I think?

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ken lasaine
Anders

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Posts: 60
Reply with quote  #29 

Hi, thanks for this month lessons. Amazing stuff as usual!

 

Love the walking bass blues pages. Is it possible to continue with some more "walking bass" arrangements? I have Barbara´s book (love it), and at the end under Ted´s music studies, there´s a lesson Ted wrote in -77 called "walking bass style - Satin Doll".

I´m just curious how Ted would approach a "standard" with a walking bass line. Did he play the melody, chords and bass line at the same time?

 

/Anders

PaulV

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Posts: 1,711
Reply with quote  #30 
Hi Anders,
Sure, I'll put more walking bass line studies on my to-do list, and especially look at the Satin Doll version.  It won't be ready for June, since all the new material is ready and we're getting it prepared for posting....so, look for it in the July Newsletter items.
Glad you like the lessons, and thanks for the feedback!

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