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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #1 
Check it out.  Good stuff to keep your fingers happy and your brain awake and ready!
http://www.tedgreene.com/news/default.asp

Looking for some discussion on the Diminished 7th Chords page..... 

Has anyone learned "I'll Remember April" from last month? Well, there's more....

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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #2 
great stuff Paul! Bravo once again.

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jazzuki

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Reply with quote  #3 

Paul,
Many thanks for the comp of "YDKWLI". Just superb!
I'll get a lot of mileage out of this.

Keith

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the great lesson charts this month! So far I've had a chance to dig into the walking bass blues pages. I'll start adding extentions after it gets committed to memory, (what little I have left). One thing that's real helpful is your compilation pages. I'm able to see and grasp the rythmic patterns. This has always been the trickiest part of learning this stuff for me.

I love the contrary motion pages! Georgous stuff, totally gets my endorphins going. I like the way that Ted starts the descending line then continues on with the cycle of 4ths to keep it going. 
Any idea how or where to use this in a tune? Intros, segues, modulation passages, I'm guessing?

I looked at the diminished page for a while. It makes sense, although I must confess that when I look at too many chord formulas written on a page my eyes start to gloss over. I do understand it though, the whole Dim7=7b9 thing. It would be interesting to know Ted's thoughts on how he liked to use it to modulate to the 4 implied keys. (Each Dim7 chord being the V7 chord of 4 keys a b3rd apart.) I assume that's what he's thinking.

Again thank you all for keeping Ted's spirit alive in this world.

My best to you.
Keith   
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #5 
Keith,
Regarding the contrary-motion stuff, as mentioned in the Newsletter, Leon said Ted often employed these babies at the ending of a piece.  But use them wherever they fit!  I'll look into putting more of these up in the coming months.

As Ted mentioned in his Diminished 7th Chords page, it's best to analyze these chords as you come across them in songs...real examples instead of just theory.  That way the info will be better absorbed.  I've come across hundreds of songs that have a diminished triad listed when in fact it should be a diminished 7th chord (as Ted cited), and tons of times when the diminished chord is given the wrong root name, or when it should actually be a dom.7(b9) chord.  Look through some fake books and find songs with diminished chords....then used Ted's lesson pages to analyze it.  You'll find that the "cheaper" or less-accurate lead sheets tend to mislabel those chords frequently.

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klasaine

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Reply with quote  #6 
Wow! Those 'tonality' pages bring back some memories.
Along with 'Moon Glow' comping sheets they were the first TG pages I got - from Chips Hoover (Dales/Bobs Guitar shop).

It'll be interesting reading the newly transcribed versions. I'm sure I missed a few sentences - lol!
Thanks !!!

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ken lasaine
LeonWhite

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Reply with quote  #7 
Keith,
On one of the GIT/MI videos I think(?) you'll hear Ted use the contrary motion at the very end of a song.  It is really the end.  You're playing along in some chord melody medium tempo or ballad, and when done, you add the contrary motion.  I heard Ted do that many times. 

No one expects it, the effect was always an intake of breath by the audience.  Very powerful there. Rhythm used could be related to the rhythm of the melody, or some rhythm implying a cadence or closing.  Or...not.

Leon
Keith

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Reply with quote  #8 
Leon,
Thanks for your response.
I'll do it. Gotta end strong!
Best 
Keith
Keith

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Reply with quote  #9 
Hi Paul,
On the diminished chord pages Ted organizes them into 3 groups, io7, ivo7, and vo7. He mentions that later on they will be used for certain types of modulations.
Did Ted write anything down describing this?
Thanks
Keith
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #10 
Hey Keith,
I dunno.  I'll give a look. 
My initial guess is that this would be covered in anything he might have written about modulations - but a casual glance at the pages we're already posted in the Harmony & Theory section doesn't reveal anything along these lines. 

He might also be alluding to the fact that a diminished 7th chord could be interpreted as being any of 4 different 7(b9) chords, and that you could use these chords as a pivot point to go in a different direction....  But I'll see if he's got a sheet like that.

If I can't find anything don't be too surprised.  Ted often wrote lessons with the intention of making a series, or a part 2, or pages 2, 3, 4, etc., but never got around to finishing. 

I'll let you know if I discover something....

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Keith

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Reply with quote  #11 
Thank you, Paul.
K
kontiki

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Reply with quote  #12 
It's interesting to contrast these pages, written in 1974, with the Mark Levy lesson on diminished chords in the early 90's. Though there is no contradiction between the two, the Mark Levy lesson is much more "hands-on". Ted's analysis of diminished chords seems to have evolved into a more practical and less theoretical vision.
In the Mark Levy lessons, Ted states that on a primary level, any diminished chord (within an already established tonality) will be perceived as one of three possible functions: i°, #i°(VI7b9), or V7b9.

the i° resolves to I or i (or a substitution of I)

the V7b9 also resolves to I or i (or a substitution of I)

the #i°(VI7b9) resolves to ii or II

so any diminished chord, on the primary level, within an established tonality will be perceived as one of these three functions. In the Mark Levy lesson, he creates an exercise where he establishes a key and then hits diminished chords at random and precedes to resolve them to one of these three things and thereby shows that of the twelve possible diminished chords: 8 resolve to I, and the other 4 resolve to ii (II).
Now keep in mind that this is just the primary level,and that diminished chords can also be used to go to many far away and surprising places. And unfortunately he doesn't explain, at least on the tapes, his view about the other levels, notably about the very common biii°(i°) going to ii that's in so many standards.

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Keith

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Reply with quote  #13 
I've seen seen 1/3, io7/3 (biiio7), ii7, V7, 1 a lot.
I figured that the biiio7 was a II7b9 going to ii7 on its way to V7.

II7, ii7, V7, I is one of Ted's pet sounds.
 
Best,
Keith
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #14 
David,
I think it's time for you to chime in.....

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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #15 
I agree with Kieth, well put. This movement seems quite common in the Great American Songbook and I came to the same conclusion and consider it one of a secondary function of io7.(io7 in 2nd inversion could also be seen as viio7 of V7) 
This function also turns up in other situations besides acting like II7 moving to ii  -V7. It also can proceed v min on it's way to I7 on its way to IV (ii V7 of IV) as in Wave.  We can see it as the same as Kieth describes only with IV as it's target. Has anyone seen this type of function heading to any other destinations?  I can't recall but would be happy to find out about other examples.
 My take on this is viio7 moving to I7 with a companion minor of I7 as a stop along the way.    In other words as in Wave,  Dmaj7- C#o7/Bb -Amin7- D7- Gmaj7 etc., Or in a more conventional use in the case of say Embraceable You, I - io7/3- ii- V7 if you consider the destination to be V7 and the ii is a stop along the way to V7 with the biiio7 acting as viio7 of V7.
As I re- read this it is kind of hard to read but I think it is clear, I'd love to hear any other views to confirm or refute!
thanks for reading
 Tim
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