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Posts: 99
Reply with quote  #16 
This is a great progression. The bVII7 is such a great degree. Here are my thoughts. I'm not sure they are right but I'll say 'em for the discussion. Since I love talking about this stuff

I hear the bVII7 has a real "American" sound. I know there are lots of applications but I think of a 'blue' sound, the dominant sound or key. Tunes like "In the Dark" by Lil Green. Anything that has a "IV of" so this is like "IV of IV" which is a strong cool sound

I know Ted had a real innovative view of keys. He said there was major and minor and in the 20th century, a new key was created and it was "Dominant". I see the bVII7 as living there..

again, this is from someone who is really a noodler but these are my thoughts


btw..I love blue/gospel sounds/progressions so any discussion on that topic I would #iv7b5 to V11...I love this is soooo cool

Posts: 176
Reply with quote  #17 
bVII7 is a "great!" sound, though I just see it as an altered V chord.

In the key of C (major or minor) G7#9 = G Bb B D F. The Bb triad is really the 'money' in that chord.

A fairly common modern jazz 'piano' voicing from low to high is G B D F Bb. Used as a V7 going to C.

Conversely, using a "minor" bVII - Bbm or m7 is sometimes referred to - by me anyway - as a "jewish" V chord. Try it ... C - Bbm7 - C. I swear, you should see Charlton Heston in the desert.

Ted actually hipped me to this in the last lesson I took from him. We worked on "Caravan" and he immediately said "try a Bbm7 (or a Gbm7b5, Eb9 or a Dbmaj7)".


ken lasaine

Posts: 99
Reply with quote  #18 
Caravan is in a minor key so yes bVII7 works big time..I was thinking more in the major/dominant key area

Posts: 176
Reply with quote  #19 
I think of Caravan as being in the key of C7 (C7b9 - some fake books even have it as E dim) ... one of those "new" dominant keys TG talked about.

The 'verses' do ultimately resolve to Fm6, but then the bVII would be an Eb.

ken lasaine

Posts: 99
Reply with quote  #20 
Another one is West Coast Blues..does not disguise it in the least bit...Dominant key and hits the bVII7 right out of the gate..I don't know if it could be considered part of the sub-dominant harmony..maybe someone can chime in on this.

I know there is a tight sub-dominant relationship between the II7/IV7/bVI7..basically anything that can either go to the V or the I.

The fact that the bVII7 has that sub-dominant relationship with the IV makes me want to jump over to the other side of the tracks and get into my black caddy and go feels so good

Posts: 17
Reply with quote  #21 
A way to make the weak plagal cadence IV to I  stronger is to use subdominant minor.
ie  IV min   this connects back to I and is almost as strong as V to I which is the perfect[strong] cadence.   Related chords[inversions etc] to subdom min are
  in C maj    IVmin       Fmin [6 maj7 or min7]
                  bVII7        Bb7 [      9 13 #11]
                  IImin7b5     Dm7b5   [often with nat 9]
                  bVI maj 7    Abmaj7 [#11]   
  that's my take    good topic


Posts: 176
Reply with quote  #22 
A lot of jazz guys think of an 'extended' minor sub dom (m6 or m13) as a heavily altered V7b9 or V7b9+5 chord w/o on the bottom.

ken lasaine

Posts: 3
Reply with quote  #23 
Pointing out the voiceleading for the bVII7 to tonic is a great way of understanding the pull this harmonic progression has.

As a person who has studied harmony from the American Songbook tunes (Porter, Gershwin, Rodgers, etc), the iv- to bVII7 is quite a standard harmonic device to get back to a tonic major or to the iii-. It is often referred to as a "backdoor" ii-V, because the bVII7 acts a V chord a whole step below the tonic. Also, the iv- is often setup as a major IV chord - OR - there is a ii- chord that moves up a minor third to get the iv- and then is followed by bVII7.

Here are just some examples of both of these events happening in standards. This is truly a common harmonic move and can be heard quite often.

Tonicized IV to iv-: "In a mellow tone", "Donna Lee (Back home again in Indiana)", "The More I See You", "Without a Song"

ii- moving up a minor third to iv-: "Days of Wine and Roses",  "Meditation", "I Should Care", "How Deep is the Ocean"



Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #24 
 on "a certain smile" from Ted Greene's "solo guitar",
Ted playes bVII in place of IV:2nd part of Ab chorus.
  I    |bVII|iimin/5|bVII/b7|V7|V7OFvi/3|vi9|I7/b7|etc..
notice the chromatic bass from the second chord,descending,than
assending with different beautiful is that?
i think 4 and b7 are both sub dominant.
b7 is the 4 of 4,also a substitute chord for iv6[iv6/4].
love you Ted,bless the gods.

Posts: 9
Reply with quote  #25 

Are there any books that any of you guys could recommend to help me with this topic? I'm quite knew to this way of thinking.


Posts: 209
Reply with quote  #26 
MH, I know of no books that explain what Ted called his 'Expanded Diatonic' ideas, but you can pilfer lots of info from Mark's lessons, plus a thing here or there from the DVD seminars.  Ted would probably say learning as many classic tunes as you can would be helpful as well, using each one as a study. 

Paul's great compare and contrast lead sheets are pretty amazing resources as well to see how Ted would use subs.

I believe Ted mentions several times in the lessons that he was working on a book to talk about his expanded diatonic ideas, but unfortunately it didn't come to pass.  I would love to have ALL of his ideas on that topic in one place. 

Posts: 9
Reply with quote  #27 

Hey Jeff. thankyou for your reply, i'll be sure to check those lessons out

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