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wkriski

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Posts: 117
Reply with quote  #1 
I've been looking at this pdf amongst others http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/baroque/CycleOf4ths_2.pdf

It sounds amazing, I love the cycle of 4ths and noticed the common tone for each pair of chords. In the first two groups it's the highest voice, then for the next group the middle voice has common tones.

My question is how to use this for baroque - it seems the chords are major 7ths and minor 7ths would be more of a jazz context. In either case are we supposed to decorate each voice using the shapes?

Or if we look at part 3 pdf, the little chord shapes, just wondering what we should do with them as some other pdfs have more open triad voicings to use.

Are there any patterns for moving the bass, middle (saw some for the top voice) - some of these can be quite tricky to sustain as other voices move!

Thanks

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Will Kriski http://www.willkriski.com
Zorshelter

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Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #2 
I just looked at the first few chords and I'm no specialist but it shows you a very common progression in baroque with the "proper" preparation and resolution of the 7th of each chord (the third in the first chord pair becomes the 7th in the second chord and the 7th in the first chord becomes the 3rd of the second chord) I don't know the english term for that but it could be named a diatonic 7th march (walk)....anyway I think other forumites will chime in to further help you

Think it's frequently used between two themes, for non thematic passages in fugues etc.... and of course to modulate; please correct me if this doesn't make sense...

wkriski

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Posts: 117
Reply with quote  #3 
Thanks for the info and quick response! I understand the progressions and voice leading but was wondering how to make music from the progression, perhaps by adding melodic patterns.

Those were diatonic progressions so I'm not sure what you mean by they are used to modulate?

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Will Kriski http://www.willkriski.com
Zorshelter

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Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #4 
Ok, I consider Ted's sheet number 2 as a systematic "framework", the skeleton for making some kind music, it shows you how the 3rd and 7th resolve etc... the "rule" (which are more guidlines theorised by looking at the MUSIC made by composers than absolute rules...)

 For baroque music, you really had to prepare 7th,, 9th, 4th etc...to be "allowed" to play them, you could only "attack" directly the 7th on dominant chords, otherwise the 7th (or other non real tones = tones not contained in the basic triad) had to be heard in the previous harmony (chord) = preparation

Then they had to be resolved, more often than not the note went down to the next diatonic note (or non diatonic if modulation occurs...) anyway too much shotcuts here but in baroque music you couldn't really play the first G7Maj chord as written in Ted's sheet, the 7th would have been previously prepared or at least played as a passing tone (G on the beat instead of F#, then passing tone (F#), going down to E on the C chord

As I understand in baroque music these chord sequences were all over the place, you first establish a melodic element, then to connect other parts you can fly through the circle to go to another thematic element.....(or other things), that would be diatonic for example. If you want to connect two parts of a piece you could use this cycle (1 tool among others) to modulate often by making one of the chord a dominant one...(again too much shortcuts and lots of great other tools and device to modulate)

So this sheet is really good to put these relations into your fingers and ears, it makes the relations really clear, you only have the skeleton to work with, after that, as you said you have to embelish these sequences (only limitations to stay in the baroque way of doing things would be to prepare and resolve the 7th + a few rules on 5ths and octave...)
Anyway, you can also try (I think it must be on other Ted's sheets) inverting the first chord of each pair (ex: G7M to C7M with bass B (1st inversion) to C etc...)

sorry for the long post hope you can get info from it but bear in mind that I know next to nothing, hum one more thing, often when "cycling" the melodic content and realisation of the chords (in which order notes of the chord are organised) is repeated (ex: you would play the same thing for each pair of chords (ex: G to C) and reproduce it for the next pair of chords (F# to Bm) till you decide to get out of the cycle.....)

Zorshelter

Registered:
Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #5 
Ok, I consider Ted's sheet number 2 as a systematic "framework", the skeleton for making some kind music, it shows you how the 3rd and 7th resolve etc... the "rule" (which are more guidlines theorised by looking at the MUSIC made by composers than absolute rules...)

 For baroque music, you really had to prepare 7th,, 9th, 4th etc...to be "allowed" to play them, you could only "attack" directly the 7th on dominant chords, otherwise the 7th (or other non real tones = tones not contained in the basic triad) had to be heard in the previous harmony (chord) = preparation

Then they had to be resolved, more often than not the note went down to the next diatonic note (or non diatonic if modulation occurs...) anyway too much shotcuts here but in baroque music you couldn't really play the first G7Maj chord as written in Ted's sheet, the 7th would have been previously prepared or at least played as a passing tone (G on the beat instead of F#, then passing tone (F#), going down to E on the C chord

As I understand in baroque music these chord sequences were all over the place, you first establish a melodic element, then to connect other parts you can fly through the circle to go to another thematic element.....(or other things), that would be diatonic for example. If you want to connect two parts of a piece you could use this cycle (1 tool among others) to modulate often by making one of the chord a dominant one...(again too much shortcuts and lots of great other tools and device to modulate)

So this sheet is really good to put these relations into your fingers and ears, it makes the relations really clear, you only have the skeleton to work with, after that, as you said you have to embelish these sequences (only limitations to stay in the baroque way of doing things would be to prepare and resolve the 7th + a few rules on 5ths and octave...)
Anyway, you can also try (I think it must be on other Ted's sheets) inverting the first chord of each pair (ex: G7M to C7M with bass B (1st inversion) to C etc...)

sorry for the long post hope you can get info from it but bear in mind that I know next to nothing, hum one more thing, often when "cycling" the melodic content and realisation of the chords (in which order notes of the chord are organised) is repeated (ex: you would play the same thing for each pair of chords (ex: G to C) and reproduce it for the next pair of chords (F# to Bm) till you decide to get out of the cycle.....)

Zorshelter

Registered:
Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #6 
here's one poor example of cycling, only 2 voices and no 7th; I know, I know, but it shows the pairs of chords with the repetition of the "melodic" fragment, and bass movement alike.....


bishopdm

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Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #7 
Mr. Z has obviously studied baroque counterpoint/classical harmony at some time or another.  I think it might be a bit clearer, though, to point out that, in Ted's version, while the third of the first chord becomes the seventh of the next chord (i.e., it's held over, or prepared), the seventh of the first chord moves down by step to the third of the next chord.  One is held, one moves.  And the pattern continues.  In baroque style, composers were very careful about the way they introduced sevenths, as Mr. Z. points out.  The way this works in baroque counterpoint could be illustrated by changing a couple of notes in Mr. Z's very nice two-part triadic example to include some sevenths, perhaps a little inelegantly (I don't have the music-writing software to do it myself; see suggested note changes above and below the staff) (I hope this works):

Attached Images
jpeg Untitled-1.jpg (79.06 KB, 89 views)


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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ

Zorshelter

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Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #8 
Well put like that it wouldn't really be correct (as far as I know because you attack the "7th" without preparation, it may be considered as a passing tone if we went directly from D to C etc.. anyway if it sounds good...) ,

I told you my example was a poor one, only demonstraing the reproduction of  a motif on different chord pairs, if I find the courage I'll post an exemple taken from Bach with 7th etc...
bishopdm

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Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #9 
Sevenths introduced as passing tones were completely correct in this style.

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
Zorshelter

Registered:
Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #10 
Ok great less limitations then,

but in my book a passing tone must be a consecutive step (D (root) to C (passing tone which happens to be the 7th) going to B in this case) but if you say that the corrected bass (D-F-C....) works (theoretically; as I said, if it sounds good then it's correct, but you know theory being theory..) it's great

if you can explain it a little bit or scan an exemple it could benefit to all of us, I had a quick look in an harmony book and didn't find occurences

thanks
bishopdm

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Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #11 
Oh, I see the confusion—sorry, I should have explained.  In the left hand of the first measure, the D is the true bass note for the whole measure; the F is really an inner voice.  So my suggested C really does pass from the D to the B.  And in the next measure, although the F in the top voice that I suggest doesn't appear until the last moment, you can really hear the connection with the F in the top voice of the previous measure (the preparation).  This sort of thing happens all the time in free composition (as opposed to what would be in a strict counterpoint exercise).

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
barbarafranklin

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Posts: 940
Reply with quote  #12 
Here are three different examples of V7 resolutions.  I think the circled "D"eighth-note at the end of measure 3 in example #1 uses the 7th as a passing tone.   And perhaps in Ex.2 the circled "A" could also be considered a passing tone,  yes?

I actually forgot what the initial point of this discussion was. 

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jpeg V7_chord.jpg (607.76 KB, 135 views)


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Barbara Franklin

Zorshelter

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Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #13 
Ok so I checked with someone who knows and he told me that the bassline (D F C to B) could be analysed either as a passing tone or as a weak appogiatura and as said David it's a commonly used device

Concerning measure 2 the F resolving down to the E, it's only a 7th on a dominant chord resolving to the 3rd of the I chord so no problem, my concern was more with the E (last melody note of the 4th measure), it can be viewed as a weak appogiatura, or helped by the repeated motif (measure 1-2 reproduced in measure 3-4) which allow us to make it sound though not prepared, or again as mentioned David, you could consider a line going F (1st 2 measures) E (last 2 measure) again allowing us to use or rather to make the 7th of the 4th chord sound (kind of considering the preparation is measure 3

Don't know if it's clear for you but clouds disappeared for me

For the a in example 8-3 from Bach's choral, the circled A is just the 7th of the dominant chord so it's not a passing tone (the G and B on the first beat of the same measure are, as is the circled D in ex.1)

Don't know if the original question was answered but you have a few more ingredients that make Baroque music what it is....

bishopdm

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Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #14 

Hmmmm…just what was the original topic?

Anyway, here we go…

I think it's important for everyone who's ever undertaken formal instruction in traditional harmony and/or counterpoint to realize that every "rule" you're taught can be found broken in "real" music.  Students are taught to write simple musical exercises by following very strict guidelines because that's the easiest way to get fundamental, but important, concepts across.  Even the great composers went through similar processes in their early days.  The statement that sevenths are always prepared in the previous harmony is true up to a point.  If you’re writing strict counterpoint exercises, it’s ALWAYS true.  But then, there’s “real” music. 

In pre-baroque music you would almost never (notice the qualifier) find an unprepared seventh.  Sevenths, as a dissonance, were originally introduced into music as suspensions, and suspensions, by definition, had to be present in the previous harmony.  Under what circumstances would you find exceptions to this in pre-baroque music?  Well, it would most likely depend on what type of music you were considering.  “Rules” were more often relaxed in instrumental music than they were in vocal music.  Why?  Many of the part-writing “rules” were implemented to create music that was easy to sing (and to keep the church happy, but that’s another topic).  For example, difficult melodic intervals were avoided in vocal music because singers often had trouble singing them.  But in instrumental music one can find such “forbidden” intervals.  Why?  They’re easier to play on a mechanical instrument.  Allowances were also made in the treatment of such dissonances when dramatic effects were intended, as in early opera.

As musical styles and tastes (and harmony) developed, the traditional “rules” were relaxed more and more from the baroque period, through the classical period, to the end of the romantic period (and, of course, once tonal music dissolved in the beginning of the 20th century, the rules were no longer necessary).  Even as early as the baroque period, it was not uncommon to see unprepared sevenths and sevenths introduced through passing motions.  The Bach example Barbara presents even shows it as a freely introduced chord member.  (Although I don’t suppose anyone noticed that the seventh [A] really is prepared in the previous chord, just not in the same register.  This procedure of voice transfer will become more and more evident in the classical and romantic periods.  This is an example of what the Austrian theorist Heinrich Schenker meant when he made a distinction between “strict composition” and “free composition,” which, despite its name, really does have its basis in strict compositional rules.)  You’d really be surprised at the wild things found in Bach’s 371 chorales.  When I first started teaching, I began going through the chorales one by one, making a list of the broken “rules” I was finding to show to my students.  Of course, I wouldn’t let them do anything similar. 

The two sevenths I tried to introduce into Mr. Z’s example were both correct (perhaps not entirely artistic), but the example originally chosen did not lend itself to clarity of my presentation, which I regret.  It’s a good example of a circle of fourths progression, but one that didn’t really address the original query of how sevenths worked in baroque style in the circle of fourths (ah, that’s what it was!...).  It’s closer to “free composition” that it is to “strict composition.”  The passing tone seventh in the bass would have been more clearly demonstrated if I had placed it on the second half of beat three, as the second of two eighth notes (D–C).  My placing it as a complete substitute for the D on beat three is difficult to “see” because it seems to come from the F on beat two.  In real time, on the surface, it certainly does.  But at a deeper level, it really comes from the D on beat one; the F on beat two really does function as an inner voice.  (To consider my substituted C on beat three as a “weak appoggiatura” contradicts the definition of an appoggiatura, which is an accented non-chord tone preceded by a skip and, most often, resolved by step in the opposite direction, something I’m afraid Mr. Z’s “someone who knows” has forgotten.)

As for the sevenths I introduced in the soprano voice, if anyone who’s concerned didn’t actually play through what I suggested, you may have missed my point.  Sure, the F on the second half of beat three in measure two looks as if it comes from the D on beat three (which, again it does, on the surface level), but you really can hear it coming from the Fs that appeared twice in measure 1.  Same with measures 3 and 4.  At least, I have no trouble hearing that, but—hey—I might be biased!  The late, great Kenny Poole once said he preferred playing with bass players who had ears that “hung down to the floor.”  I don’t think you need ears like that to hear what I’m trying to get across.

Something I would have liked to have done would have been to re-write Mr. Z’s example (with my suggested changes) as block chords, which would have been visually (and perhaps aurally) more instructive, I think.  But I don’t have the software or a scanner (wish I had the money, but with eight cats to feed…).

It’s late, I’m sleepy, and I’m sure you’re all tired of hearing from me.  I do want to apologize to Charles if I ever made him feel that his answer to the infamous “Name That Chord” thread was wrong.  Charles, my friend, your answer most certainly was not wrong (nor was anyone else’s), just not the one I would have chosen (for the reasons I gave).  Actually, your answer was closer to my original let’s-just-call-it-a-linear-chord-and-leave-it-at-that idea, don’t you think?  But I don’t think Paul liked that…


So, good night, all!

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
wkriski

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Posts: 117
Reply with quote  #15 
Great to see all this input! I'm obsessed with Ted baroque videos, at least the first 2 have lots of learnable gems!

I guess I was surprised to see major/minor 7ths (not dom.7ths) in the chords as opposed to basic triads. I'm lesson concerned about the 'rules' than finding practical chordal structures that allow upper, middle or lower decoration. Many times it's tough to get other adjacent notes and let them ring. My main focus is making music, I've gotten hung up on exercises in the past and it mostly didn't translate to being able to making music.

I'm trying to figure out the most effective way to practice this stuff, meaning the most musical way. Of course you can practice thirds and sixths in every key, then you have all the open triads. My favorite lesson was the one where each chord had two open triads so the bass was moving and the progression modulated to other keys.

I will probably violate counterpoint rules but focusing on the chord progressions and modulation (secondary dominants, Ted also showed going to relative minor/major in 6ths) are probably my favorite thing.

I would think that progressive playable examples with chordal analysis would probably be the most effective way for me to learn while playing real music.

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Will Kriski http://www.willkriski.com
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