PLEASE REGISTER TO POST. Also, be sure to visit the main website www.tedgreene.com

**************************************************************************************
Buy NOW on Amazon
My Life with The Chord Chemist
A Memoir of Ted Greene, Apotheosis of Solo Guitar
Available at amazon.com

*Check it out!!!

VISIT OUR NEW SUPPORT PORTAL
Your contributions keep the site healthy and growing


More information HERE

Official Ted Greene Archives Blog

Ted Greene Archives on YouTube

Join Ted on FACEBOOK

NEW! Follow on TWITTER

..:: The Ted Greene Forums ::..
Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
spinality

Registered:
Posts: 6
Reply with quote  #1 
For anybody who is interested, I created the attached reformatted version of the 12-bar blues study. This makes it a little easier to work with as a practice aid. The forum doesn't permit PDF attachments so I've provided it as a JPG.

Attached Images
jpeg TedGreeneBluesStudy.jpg (364.13 KB, 76 views)

PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,715
Reply with quote  #2 
Hey Trevor,
Great that you've created another layout of Ted's 12-Bar Blues Progression study page.
I wasn't aware that the version I created was difficult to read or work from: 
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/blues/12_BarBluesProgressionStudy_TedGreene_1982-10-29.pdf
In presenting Ted's pages we have been striving to create "transcription" pages to make them more clear.  If you'd like to help, or if anyone has any comments, suggestions, criticisms, or ideas about improving our current methods -- please let me know.  Thanks!

__________________
--Paul
spinality

Registered:
Posts: 6
Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Paul. I didn't mean to imply that yours was difficult to read. However when I printed it out, my old eyes had to squint a lot ... so I decided to reformat your version with bigger text. In the process, I also realized that combining adjacent boxes that share the same chord would help make the harmonic differences stand out between each variation.

We each work a little differently, so this may not appeal to you; but I find that this view gives me some extra insight into what Ted had in mind. (Somewhere around here, I have a similar set of blues change variations that Sal Salvador wrote out for me thirty years ago. If I can find it, maybe I will transcribe that and post it; it might make an interesting comparison.) -- Trevor

UPDATE: P.S., without yet having a detailed knowledge of Ted's normal voicings, I am puzzling a little over what he had in mind for some of these chords. Obviously this is a matter of choice, but in particular the G7/6, the E7#9, and the various altered chords could be voiced in a number of different ways, with quite different harmonic consequences. If anybody has a clearer idea of the particular chord shapes that Ted would be likely to choose on these progressions (which presumably represent very typical patterns rather than oddball combinations), I would find that quite interesting.
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,715
Reply with quote  #4 
Generally, Ted intended that a 7/6 chord to be a dominant 7th chord with a 6th added (or, you can think of it as the 13th) - but it doesn't contain a 9th:  1,3,5,b7,6(13).  A pretty common voicing for this one is G, F, B, E (no 5th).

When he included the 9th then he would name it as a dominant 13th.:  1,3,5,b7,9,13(6). 
Common voicings for this would be: G, F A, B, E or G, F, B, E, A.

When I'm making my "compilation" pages and working with Sibelius music notation program, it doesn't allow for G7/6 or G/9 chord names so I choose the more commonly used name of G13 or Gadd9.
I believe that you can see more of Ted's chord names and symbols in Chord Chemistry.
Next month (June) we'll post one of Ted's pages on Chord Formulas n the Fundamentals section as a reference.  This should be a helpful tool to understand his chord-naming conventions.

PS.  I welcome any input and work you do with Ted's lesson sheets.  I'll see if we can include your page along with mine write-up for the 12-bar blues study.

I'd recommend Modern Chord Progressions to see if Ted has anything related to the various applications of different voice-leading of the progressions mentioned in the 12-bar blues study.  You may also find a lot of examples in the many lesson pages in the Teachings section here.

__________________
--Paul
spinality

Registered:
Posts: 6
Reply with quote  #5 
Oh, duh, that makes sense. I interpreted the slash notation as meaning "root" -- I thought G7/6 meant "G7 with 6 in the root". But doesn't G7/5 mean "G7 with 5th in the root"? Or does that have some other meaning?

Thanks for the pointers. I find that Ted's block diagrams make my brain hurt -- even though they are logical, I am more used to reading normal notation.

Finally, when Ted calls for altered chords, is this the normal meaning (i.e. a dominant chord in which neither 5 nor 9 appears unaltered = 137 plus any combination of b5/b9/#5/#9)...or did he have a particular flavor that he usually meant? Sorry if this is spelled out in the other sources, I'm still finding my way around this material.
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,715
Reply with quote  #6 
Trevor,
Yes, altered means you can make any combination of dominant chord, with b9, #9, natural-9, b5, #5, natural 5, 13, 11....it's left up to the player how he wants to "beat up" the chord. 
You can have a G9(#5) and that is still an "altered" chord even though the 9 isn't altered. 
Or, you can have a G7(#9) - with a natural 5th (again, the 5th need not be sharp or flat for it to be called an "altered" chord - but at least one of them - the 5th or 9th - should be altered).  And, you can have a chord with both a #5 and a b5 if you want.
And of course, you don't always need the root in the chord....just the 3 and b7 plus the other tones you want to add.

Yes, I believe that Ted's G7/5 is his unofficial way of stating that the 5th is in the bass.  He didn't use that very often.
I think you mean to say "5th in the bass", not "5th in the root."  Yes?

I've been reading and using Ted's grid diagrams for about 30 years....after you get used to them your brain wont hurt so much....and you might even come to like them for quick and easy reading of complex chord voicings.

__________________
--Paul
spinality

Registered:
Posts: 6
Reply with quote  #7 
"Yes, altered means you can make any combination of dominant chord, with b9, #9, natural-9, b5, #5, natural 5, 13, 11....You can have a G9(#5) and that is still an "altered" chord even though the 9 isn't altered."

OK, although that definition is not universally understood (cf. New Real Book II and other sources, where the natural-9 is not part of an altered chord; this is also how Chuck Wayne viewed it; but not everybody agrees). So it is very informative that Ted regarded natural-9 as valid in an altered chord.

But my larger question was: In these blues studies, when Ted said "D7alt" was this shorthand for something particular he had in mind like D7b5b9, or did he really mean "take your choice from all these D7alt possibilities" i.e. the same meaning it has in a lead sheet? (I'm guessing he meant "take your pick" unless you say "Oh, yeah, in these blues patterns he would usually play alt chords as X or Y.")

"I think you mean to say "5th in the bass", not "5th in the root."  Yes?"

Duh, yes, sorry, i.e. 2nd inversion. I need to post more carefully.

"I've been reading and using Ted's grid diagrams for about 30 years....you might even come to like them...."

I see their advantages of course. However I spend much of my time reading classical guitar music, I play 7- and 8-string instruments, and Ted's grids are tiny...so I have a few mental translations to go through to use them comfortably.

Many thanks for all these detailed replies, Paul, it's very helpful. You've been patient. - Trevor
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,715
Reply with quote  #8 
Well, any time you use an alteration on a dominant, you should know what you're doing and what effect you want to create, and be aware of voice-leading.  The altered tone is usually creating a tension that you'll be releasing as it is resolved.  This you already know.
Depending on the context of the song, certain altered tones "work" and other don't so well.  I think you can learn more about regarding the Dom7#9 chord in Ted's pages on "Learning to Use Altered Dominants On One Degree At a Time" series in the Harmony & Theory section:
http://www.tedgreene.com/teaching/harmony.asp
I think the "take your pick" answer is probably what is intended by D7alt.  But, of course you're going to find that your ear likes certain altered tones in certain situations, and some that you don't like.  It's all about context....but, given that, anything can work if you handle it properly. 
I'll dig around in Ted's teaching materials and see if there is more on this particular subject that we can post for next month.

__________________
--Paul
spinality

Registered:
Posts: 6
Reply with quote  #9 
Thanks, Paul, very clear. (I will also look around Ted's materials about his view of natural-9 in an altered chord; this topic has always amused me.) Regarding the blues study page, I was thinking this: Since Ted had worked out these practice patterns in such detail, he probably had specific altered forms in mind (since most practice is about repetition, rather than making choices on the fly). Hence my question. But apparently he did not; or maybe instead, he meant that each of the altered forms itself represents 3-6 additional variations on its pattern, using the different altered choices. I guess that's how I'll start practicing these, bumping it up from 11 blues patterns to 20-30, choosing b5/#5/b9/#9/11/13/etc. for the various altered forms. Yeah and I guess I'll use some natural-9 forms too. Thanks again. -- Trevor
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

YOUR SUPPORT MAKES A DIFFERENCE :: DONATE