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ghandi

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Reply with quote  #1 

 i have had chord chemistry for about a year and a half and finally feal like i should really try to dig into it for good length of time- if not for the rest of my life. I understand  that the book is one of those things that you have to put in huge amounts of time into and continually chip away at, but i have been just staring at the chords trying to organize them in some sort of logical way to no avail. i do have background in the caged system, but it doesnt seem to be a focuse in the book.  i would appreciate any help from anyone. thank you very much. 

 

 

dracula

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Reply with quote  #2 

recommend you take a look at al dimeola's "a guide to chords, scales and arpeggios" ghandi - it does the job of catergorizing and organizing the chords for you.  it illustrates 10 jazz chord forms and which voices you can move within each form and the resultant chord name it produces.  it also has 10 lesson plans for you to work through if you feel you need some form of regiment rather than 'staring at the chords' in chord chemistry.  once you've gotten the hang of a jazz chord form you can incorporate it into the caged system that you already know as well as attack ted greene's chord stuff in a more informed way.

 

 

SteveBrodie

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Reply with quote  #3 
This attachment might help a little.  This might be in the "From Students" section soon.
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/students/SteveBrodie/SystematicInversions_SteveBrodie.pdf

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omobob

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Reply with quote  #4 
Nicely explained - thank you. I have about 10 pages of Ted's worksheets titled "Systematic Inversions and Friends" - would it be appropriate to post them here?
YoungBlood

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by omobob
Nicely explained - thank you. I have about 10 pages of Ted's worksheets titled "Systematic Inversions and Friends" - would it be appropriate to post them here?


As far as I can see, this site is about sharing, so it would be appropriate. There have been many contributers (unforetunaely I can't say I've been one of them-I don't have any handouts that I was given by Ted), from Mark Thornbury, Bob, Leon White, Barbara Franklin, and numerous others.
But it is nice of you to ask. Perhaps you may want to start your own thread on the subject?

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #6 

I've got a number of Ted's handouts that I've just recently scanned, and I am wondering what the best way to handle these.  Is the "Teaching" section on this website going to house these things?  That would be the most logical and practical place to put them.  If so, I'd rather hold off posting any of them here in the Forums section.

Also, I'm curious to know where all of Ted's original papers are?  If the originals are available for posting, they would be certainly be better quality than scanned copies from students.

I'm eagerly looking forward to them all.


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ghandi

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Reply with quote  #7 

thank you for your responses. i am aware of the berklee school of thought, the basic inversions and dropped notes, but even when i look at the chords in chord chemistry i find it hard to organize them in a logical manner.  to me, they almost seem like he just wrote a bunch of chords, which is great, but i was just thinking that since someone mentioned something about ted having a system that there was more to behind the way he wrote them down than what i thought. also i would love to have any papers ted wrote out, and since this site is much larger than when i last visited in the spring i should do some more searching.

 

Steve Brodie, that scan is what i was taught by my berklee trained teacher.  i have to look through the triad forms in chord chemistry again to make sure i check more thoroughly the fact that he may have already organized them in this manner.

 

I am very curious about the "and friends" part of the pages you described. i hope to become more enlightened about ted's school of thought! thank you in advance if/when you decide to post them.

tedstafford

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Posts: 38
Reply with quote  #8 
The question of the V-1, V-2, V-3 (etc.) voicings is a most tantalizing mystery. I never studied with Ted, but have been soaking up much from the lessons Mark Levy posted. I have found two important clues in my own search for how Ted organized chords. Here they are:

1. Listen to the lesson Mark Levy taped on 05/04/92 (at about 8-10 min). Ted refers to the voicing groups being related to how close the voices are. So what Mark said in the "Converting tapes..." thread seems right. V-1 voicings are stacked thirds with all the extensions and alterations.

2. The pdf file from 9/26 lesson (again, Thanks Mr. Levy) with Voice Leading progressions has a staff with examples of Bb7 in the first 10 (FIRST TEN!?!) voicing groups. Sure enough the spacing of the chords gets wider and wider.

Does anyone know/remember, is this V-1, V-2 voicing group idea something that Ted adopted after Chord Chemistry was published?

all the best,
ted stafford



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tedstafford

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Reply with quote  #9 
Here I am again with more ideas regarding the voicing groups. Working from the two clues mentioned above I discovered these rules. All examples below are of a Bb7 chord, listed from lowest pitch to highest with the root on top as written on the lesson sheet from 9/26. In the voicing list below I use the terms soprano, alto, tenor, and bass to describe the tones in the close position V-1 chord only for the purpose of comparison. Soprano is the highest voice (regardless of the inversion), alto second highest, tenor next, and bass is the lowest voice.

V-1 = close position, i.e. stacked thirds, no gaps (D-F-Ab-Bb)
V-2 = drop the alto voice 1 8va (Ab-D-F-Bb) (these are the drop-2 voicings)
V-3 = drop the alto & tenor voice 1 8va (F-Ab-D-Bb)
V-4 = drop the tenor voice 1 8va (F-D-Ab-Bb) (full rhythm-playing voicings)
V-5 = drop the alto & bass voice 1 octave (D-Ab-F-Bb)
V-6 = drop the bass voice 1 8va (D-F-Ab-Bb)
V-7 = drop the alto voice 2 8va (Ab-D-F-Bb)
V-8 = drop the tenor voice 1 8va and the alto voice 2 8va (Ab-F-D-Bb)
V-9 = drop the tenor & bass voices 1 8va and the alto voice 2 8va (Ab-D-F-Bb)
V-10 = drop the alto voice 2 8va and the bass voice 1 8va (Ab-D-F-Bb)

Here are some examples from Modern Chord Progressions in the order presented on p. 23 "7th Chord Diatonic Forms (Major Key)" for chord scales. Here I use soprano, alto, tenor, bass to refer to the voices in the chord not as a reference to how the voicing is different from V-1.

Line 1:
* first 3 grids are EM7 in V-2 on 3 string sets with the root in the bass.
* grids 4 and 5 are V-4 on 2 string sets with the root in the bass.
* grids 6 and 7 are V-5 on 2 string sets with the root in the bass.
* grids 8, 9 and 10 are V-1 on 3 string sets with the root in the bass.
* grids 11 and 12 are V-3 on 2 string sets with the root in the bass.

Line 2: Some of these are hard to classify because they have doubled tones.
* first grid is V-6 with the root in the bass.
* grids 2, 3 and 4 are V-2 on 3 string sets with no 5th and a doubled 3rd and root in the bass. (Is this still V-2?)
* grids 5, 6 and 7 are V-4 on 3 string sets with no 5th and the root in the bass. (Is this still V-4?)
* grids 8 and 9 are V-4 or V-5 on 2 string sets with no 5th, a doubled seventh and the root in the bass. (Is this still V-4?)
* grids 10 and 11 look like V-6 on two string with no 5th and a doubled root (could be seen as V-1 with no 5th and root doubled.)

Line 3:
* grids 1, 2 and 3 are V-2 on 3 string sets with the 3rd in the bass. (1st inversion)
* grids 4 and 5 are V-4 on 2 string sets with the 3rd in the bass. (1st inversion)
* grids 6, 7 and 8 are V-2 on 3 string sets with the 5th in the bass. (2nd inversion)
* grids 9 and 10 are V-4 on 2 string sets with the 5th in the bass. (2nd inversion)
* grids 11 and 12 are V-5 on 2 string sets with the 5th in the bass. (2nd inversion)

These forms are only the beginning, though. There's always the forms with 9ths, altered 5ths, 13ths, etc. AND, some forms have different possible fingerings/string set possibilities. It's a wonder.

I was working on my own categories of 7th chord voicings and finding something similar to Ted's but I hadn't hit on the idea of grouping them based on where the voices were moving from close-position. I love this idea. Thanks Ted!

Is this correct/clear? Would anyone care to see grids? Other thoughts?

Yours,
ted stafford

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skotrock

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Reply with quote  #10 
That was a big help Ted- thanks!
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #11 

Regarding Voice Groups, I'll share what I have. When I was studying with Ted we talked about it a bit, but he didn't delve too deep into it.  I also wrote up some pages of various voice groups and their inversions.  I showed it to Ted and he marked each group with it's "V" number (in red pen).  That's the stuff he confirmed.  The table below was never shown to him, so I can't vouch for it entirely.  He mentioned that he had about 14 groups, but I never found out about V-11, 12, 13, or 14.  As Ted said, some of this stuff is unplayable, except in rare situations. Let me know what you think, and let me know about errors.

--Paul

 

Voice              Root                            First                            Second                       Third

Group             Position                      Inversion                     Inversion                     Inversion

 

V-1      =          1,3,5,7                        3,5,7,1                        5,7,1,3                        7,1,3,5

V-2      =          1,5,7,3                        3,7,1,5                        5,1,3,7                        7,3,5,1

V-3      =          1,3,7,5                        3,5,1,7                        5,7,3,1                        7,1,5,3

V-4      =          1,7,3,5                        3,1,5,7                        5,3,7,1                        7,5,1,3

V-5      =          1,5,3,7                        3,7,5,1                        5,1,7,3                        7,3,1,5

V-8      =          1,7,5,3                        3,1,7,5                        5,3,1,7                        7,5,3,1

 

In the following voicings the bottom note is an octave down:

V-6      =          1,3,5,7                        3,5,7,1                        5,7,1,3                        7,1,3,5

V-7      =          1,5,7,3                        3,7,1,5                        5,1,3,7                        7,3,5,1

 

In the following voicings the top note is an octave up:

V-9      =          1,5,7,3                        3,7,1,5                        5,1,3,7                        7,3,5,1

 

In the following voicings there is an octave between the second and third voices:

V-10    =          1,5,7,3                        3,7,1,5                        5,1,3,7                        7,3,5,1

 

 

Some of these inversions are difficult or impossible on the guitar.

 


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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #12 

Here are the attachments:



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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #13 

A couple more:



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ghandi

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Reply with quote  #14 
wow, fantastic. thank you very much. i will be looking at these over the next couple of weeks/months.
NickStasinos

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Reply with quote  #15 

Hi Paul!

 

I remember starting out with Ted in the late 70s when he was teaching Systematic Inversions (small, medium, large density chords) only to be replaced with the more sophisticated V-chord system.  Your chart is a great tool for understanding this system! 

 

I had taken several lessons with Ted on the subject and attempted to write out the logic of the V1, V2, etc..  I only got to V7, so far.  I need to go back and find which tape he explained this to me (mid-2000s) to double check my notes.  I didn't write down the tape number or date, so this might take a while.

 

I am posting this page with the idea of comparing notes and, of course, it is subject to correction/revision later on.  I used a pencil line to show which notes move where to create the next set.  

 

Feedback?

 

Nick



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