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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #1 
First let me say Bravo, nicely done.
 
I have a quick comment on the analysis.  David, perhaps you mentioned it and I missed it, but the last chord of part I (the C#7) which goes to F major clearly functions as an Augmented German 6th chord.  So instead of seeing or hearing it as a common tone modulation, I hear a german 6 going to a I in second inversion (which is really a V dominant sus, or a V with an upper neighbor,) which then goes to V7 (through the passing vi). which is exactly how an augmented 6th functions
The augmented 6 clearly resolves the way it should (into an octave )and this allows him to modulate a half step down. It's a stunning effect and not one from Bach's period (aumented 6ths come into use a little after Bach, though I'm sure someone could find an example where he used one - Bach did everything), and I can almost hear the way Ted would have made that modulation ring out in all it's beauty on his Tele. 
 
Sorry if you mentioned this already,
again, nice job
Mike

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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #2 
Another comment:
 
The harmony (and chord) in measure 52 seems to my ears to be ii of D minor. It's basically an Em7b5 chord which as we all know is the ii of D minor. I consider that the modulation starts in that measure (52) and that it resolves nicely to a tonic in second inversion (which I consider a classical Vsus or with an upper neighbor,.... at any rate a Dominant function) then to the bona fide dominant.
 
wouldn't you agree?
 
p.s. talking about this kind of stuff is fun for me, sorry if others don't share the sentiment.

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barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #3 
Kontiki, 
Perhaps David will comment before I have a chance. I have printed out your comments and will look at the pages, and make comparisons.  Ted and I both loved talking about this kind of stuff.  I hope others will begin to enjoy this more.  
Thanks so much for your participation. 
Barbara

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Barbara Franklin
kontiki

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Reply with quote  #4 
Flag!  David have you seen this thread? 
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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #5 
Hi Kontiki:

Glad you like this stuff (I do, too).

First issue:  There is no augmented sixth interval present, so I'll have to disagree.

Second issue:  you're absolutely right, the notes do form a iim7b5, which is why I put the vii/V in quotes.  I can hear it both ways.

Third issue:  I fudged with the "modulation" label in bar 53.  Since we were already in D minor from bar 37, I don't really view the subsequent move to G minor as a modulation, merely a tonicization of iv.  So there really isn't a modulation in bar 53.  But I didn't want to get into the issue of modulation vs. tonicization.

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
kontiki

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
First issue:  There is no augmented sixth interval present, so I'll have to disagree.
 
David, you're absolutely right.  I must have been dreaming that there was a B (A##) in there  .  I guess I was just hearing it that way.  In any event the voice leading there is very nice (even with the parallel octave), all voices either stay where they are or move by half step (except the high F).

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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #7 
But if there had been, you would have been absolutely correct!

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David Bishop
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James

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Reply with quote  #8 
I have to be honest. If this piece were submitted to a college theory professor, it would be marked up in red like crazy with voice leading mistakes: parallel 5ths, parallel octaves, unresolved 7ths, unresolved dissonances, all voices moving in the same direction, retrogression, etc., etc. You can see in it his love of Bach and his feeling for the spirit of Bach. But at this early stage, he either didn't really understand Baroque voice leading principles, or chose to not follow them, or I am really missing something.

There are some smart theory guys in this forum. What do you say?

(Bar 4 to bar 5, parallel 5ths between bass and alto. Bar 10, parallel octaves between outer voices. Bar 1, unresolved 7th in the tenor. Bar 3, D# in the bass is an unresolved passing 7th. And lots more.)
kontiki

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Reply with quote  #9 
I don't think parallelism bothered him. as long as both voices  resolved nicely. Plus I don't think he was trying to be authentic to the style, (why would he?) but trying to write a hybrid Ted/Bach style. Plus, how many people do this kind of voice leading stuff on guitar? In school we were all required to do it on piano. Doing 4 part chorale voice leading on guitar isn't easy considering the the guitars limitations, and I don't know anybody offhand who does/did it even amongst the classical guitar composers. 
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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #10 
I think the answer is simple.  It's not an exercise for a college theory professor to look at.  It's a piece of music.

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David Bishop
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James

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Reply with quote  #11 
Look. I loved Ted and cherish the lessons I had with him. But I'm not going to say the emperor has clothes on when he doesn't.

I'm just saying, there's a lot in Thanksgiving Chorale that Bach absolutely would not do, in terms of voice leading and harmony and even melodic development. You guys are not disputing the specific things I pointed out and, like I said, there are lots of others, which I can continue to point out if it is of interest to anyone.

So we are agreed that this piece doesn't always follow
Bach's voice leading practices, yes?

And there are good transcriptions of Bach for the guitar. It's even possible to transcribe some four part chorales, or at least parts of four part chorales, for the guitar. Personally, I've tried reading some of them (extremely slowly) right off the grand staff keyboard notation.
kontiki

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
And there are good transcriptions of Bach for the guitar.  It's even possible to transcribe some four part chorales, or at least parts of four part chorales, for the guitar.  Personally, I've tried reading some of them (extremely slowly) right off the grand staff keyboard notation.
 
Transcriptions yes, but people writing the stuff, no. 
 
I agree with what you say, i just think that wasn't his goal. It seems like he was after a hybrid. 
I mean, Ted's all about voice leading, so I imagine if he had wanted to, he would have, imho.

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James

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
I agree with what you say, i just think that wasn't his goal. It seems like he was after a hybrid.


Fair enough. Clearly he was paying homage to Bach and some things are very much in Bach style.

And I am thankful for it and him and all of you and hope I haven't stirred up too much controversy.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #14 
Just wanted to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving and refresh this thread and composition by Ted.
(I know - Thanksgiving is an USA holiday, but we can all join in on the spirit of being thankful.)

Here is Ted's composition "Thanksgiving Chorale"
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/arrangements/ThanksgivingChorale_TedGreene1974-11-28.pdf

And a "compilation" of it created by yours truly, with additional comments and insights by David Bishop:
http://www.tedgreene.com/fromstudents/ThanksgivingChorale.asp

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PolythenePam

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Reply with quote  #15 
Thanks for the tremendous amount of information that you (Paul) and David ADDED to Ted's Thanksgiving Chorale.  

Happy Thanksgiving.
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