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trainwreck_joe

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Reply with quote  #1 
I've been watching (and re-watching) the great video of Ted's workshop at GIT back in '93.

In part 2 he talks a bit about "buried dissonance" and how Oliver Nelson would add unusual notes (diatonically speaking) into chord voicings (like a C# in an Am chord).  I understand the concept (and I love Oliver Nelson), but for the life of me I can't figure out what chord Ted is playing to demonstrate this (he shows--and holds--the chord right around 0:55).

Can anyone offer the fingering?

Thanks in advance.
TLerch

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Reply with quote  #2 
looks and sounds like 5/12     4/11   3/7 (corrected)      2/7
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #3 
Tim,
So you're saying this is an Bm9 (no root) in close voicing?

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--Paul
TLerch

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Reply with quote  #4 
Paul, in the context that TG was playing it to my mind it is a rootless Bmin9 spelled b7 9 b3 5,   TG also mentioned that it could be thought of as a V type chord to the Amin
( E 7 6/9sus 4)
then again i could be completely wrong : )

klasaine

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Reply with quote  #5 
Can someone link me to that specific vid?
I'm curious now.


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ken lasaine
TLerch

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Reply with quote  #6 



definitely curious to see what anyone else comes up with on this.
TLerch

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Reply with quote  #7 
oopp I just watched it again and I got one note wrong the G string note is D not E
(i went back to my earlier posts and corrected it there too hope that doesn't feel like cheating)
trainwreck_joe

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Reply with quote  #8 
So, basically

(hope this diagram comes through...)

Hm.  Bm9...  It's odd, though, because Ted seems to be talking about it in the context of some kind of Am chord (with a surprising C# note--major 3rd included somewhere in a minor chord). If that's correct, then in an Am context this would be a very odd chord, although I guess you could think of it as an Am11/6 (or maybe Ted would call it an 11/13 since that F# is above the octave), where the b3 is thrown away in favor of the "floating", sustained sound (the 11--very Oliver Nelson) --AND-- where the natural 3rd (the major chord sound) is buried as hip dissonance. From bottom to top then the chord tones would be R - M3 - 11(or 4) - 6 (or 13).  (Oh, man, where's the aspirin?).  What do y'all think?

Thanks so much for all the input.  This stuff is really fascinating.  I do have another question about a series of chords he plays earlier that sounds like a lovely take on A Taste of Honey. (think he's demonstrating either Dorian or Aeolian sounds), but I want to find the exact spot and review it (and try to figure it out a bit more) before posting questions about it.

trainwreck_joe

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Reply with quote  #9 
Oops--just RE-re-watched the video and--yes--I believe TLerch is correct.  Ted seems to be talking about this in terms of some kind of V chord vamp in the key of Am (but still with that surprising C# note added in the mix in close harmony).



bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #10 
I think this is a good topic for discussion, something we haven't had here in a while.  What is it about Ted's example that "works," even with the "odd" note?  Or is it really so odd?

If we exam the same situation in a major key, say C major, then one could say we shouldn't expect to find an Eb (D#).  But if this pitch is supported by dominant harmony, it works fine (and is actually fairly common).  Can we make this sort of comparison, or is this a different situation entirely?

I'm still trying to work this out to my own satisfaction.  Thoughts?

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
trainwreck_joe

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Reply with quote  #11 
bishopdm,

I like your examination of this in a major context.  Here, the "surprise" note in a dominant situation would just make the chord a G7#9, que no?  We don't have any problem with that chord at all, and even tend to like the #9 unburied in the soprano where it's sound is more prominent (sometimes known as the "Hendrix chord").

So in a minor context, is adding the 3rd of the parent scale the same as adding the 13 to a V chord?  Like this E13 (parent key being Am):



Minor theory is weird, though (and I'll be the first to admit I don't know enough about it).  It would seem like the minor mode defines what kind of V chord you'll use (major or minor).  If you're thinking Dorian, it'll be a major chord (E-G#-B).    If you're thinking relative minor (Aolean), then it'll be a minor chord (E-G-B)--but a minor V chord?  Seems weird somehow.

I guess I should peruse through Levine's Jazz Theory book tonight....

klasaine

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Reply with quote  #12 
As mentioned in a post above it's pretty standard to use a straight dom.V chord in a minor blues but the interesting thing here is it's a V with a natural 6th. Usually in a minor 'jazz' type blues the V chord will have #5 and/or #9 (but not a natural 6th).

So - IMO - I'd forget about thinking of it as a key of Am type chord.

The tune, 'Stolen Moments' he's referencing is in A minor (orig key is Cm) but that little move to sort of a V7 (it's usually charted as a IVmaj7 or ii-9) chord and the low A is just a pedal : is whats known as 'modal interchange'. Moving out of or changing the key for a moment. The top note of the vamp goes E F# G F#. Theoretically you can harmonize below that any chord that has a top note that's the same. In other words, harmonize the top note or melody note from another mode or key. Obviously some stuff works better than others. In this case Oliver Nelson (who did this all the time) used a big, horn section voiced E6/9, Dmaj7 or a Bm9 chord. Remember, the low A is just a pedal point. The next chord in the vamp is a C/A which is really an Am7 - back home. We're completely out of the key for 2 beats - pretty common in that era of post bop/modal jazz. And if you're blowing over this section you need to hit that C# or at least avoid a C natural.

*I assume Ted just didn't really want to get too deep into it at that point in the seminar knowing full well that that concept is a few years of study on it's own.

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ken lasaine
bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #13 
I think I should have been more clear in my question.  What has puzzled me for sometime is not where the notes come from (modal interchange, as mentioned above), but that such notes seem to appear much more often in major key situations than minor keys (i.e., notes borrowed from minor used in major).  In other words, when something like this happens in a minor key, as in Ted's "C#" in terms of A minor, we wonder about it.  But not so when it happens in a major key.

I prefer to regard modal interchange not as a move out of a key (after all, the tonic doesn't change), but rather the enrichment of a key with notes from it's parallel partner.

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
klasaine

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Reply with quote  #14 
Ted would call that a chord 'quality' change. Quality being maj, min, dom. And when you talk about keys, maj or min is a BIG part of that. A maj and A min are very different. Go to a blues jam and tell the guys that it's, "just a blues in F" - and then start playing a minor blues in F

*I find that the 'borrowing' tends to occur more in minor keys.
We almost always use a dominant V chord as opposed to the v minor. That's where the harmonic and melodic minor scales come from, or I should say why they occur.

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ken lasaine
bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #15 
I did not know Ted, but would very much have liked to have known him.  Alas....
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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
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