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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #61 
Wadayathink of Dm6 for the first chord?
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James

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Reply with quote  #62 
BarbaraLovedCats, you were right the first time.  It's a V-5.

If you consider the chord Dm6, it's method 1 BATS.  If you consider the chord Bm7b5, it's method 1 SBAT.  And by method 2 it has gaps 1 2 1.  So it's V-5.

Chords sound like Dm6 to A to me.  That's: i to V.  But it's also possible to call the first chord Bm7b5 or G9 no root.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #63 
I'm hearing it as Dm6 to A.  That's iv to I...at least in my ears.
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Deparko

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Reply with quote  #64 
Nice thread..Wow..one of my favorites progressions that Ted gave me as an exercise when practicing my systematic inversions (I think V2?) was #ivm7b5 (half dim 7) to V11 (R,b7,9,11). I use this soooo much..very soulful in a blues progression back to the I7. I've used it a million times over the past 20 or so years.. He gave me a list of these progressions to practice..I'll add to this thread if people want them...best regards..Mark
barbaralovedcats

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Reply with quote  #65 
Mark,  

I want em, please.    I can't speak for others, but I am going to guess that I am not alone here. 

I think I now understand why that D#m7b5 is on the line where this original Ted Chord Move of the Day came from. The 5th chord from the left.  

BTW,  when I saw that chord at fret 10 that I originally and immediately named as some variety of E dominant chord, i just initially ignored the A note on string A and saw something stick out like a broom handle from a shopping bag, by which i am referring to the 3 note formation formed by the notes on the E G and B strings (notes D , F and B) as being an open voiced 1st inversion B diminished triad, which in the context of the key of A and the following A chord, I just said to myself "Myself, this has got to be some sort of E dominant moving to A." That form of B dim/ E7b9, is used a lot in much of Van Eps super and sub series materials in his Harmonic Mechanisms for Guitar Volume 1, which has been a huge part of my own musical life for several years now.  It's what GVE would call a 1st inversion open B dim triad with the 3rd lowered one octave. 

So, I saw the Bdim triad and immediately knew that it might be an E7b9, G7b9, Bb7b9 or Db7b9 and concluded that this could easily be a V to I or E dom to A (though G7/Dm6 also came to mind). It seemed to me the one approach to this querry in Ted Chord Move of the Day land was V to 1 or E dom to A.  The Dm6/G9, works fine too - either as a im to V or as a vim to I; so does the inerpretation of  Bb7b9 moving down chromatically to A.   Mileage may vary, cooking times may vary depending on one's oven,   etc.  But knowing now about the #ivm7b7 to V certainly puts things into perspective for me.  


Thank you very much not only for sharing so very much of your lessons from Ted with everybody, but also for pointing out that uber wonderful  progression that Ted shared with you, #ivm7b5 to V11 and back to the I,  and so I am now thinking I understand why the D#m7b5(#ivm7b5) preceeds that chord that could be a Dm6, G7 Bm7b5, E7b9, G7b9, Bb7b9 or Db7b9.    

So now, in addition to the other correct previous ideas, we can add a D#m7b5 to Edominant to A "thing" happening here, if we add the D#mi7b5 chord to the two that were part of this additional Ted Chord Move of the Day. Sort of like Stephen Stills sang,paraphrasing - What it is ain't exactly clear though it sounded right and like so many other things in life/music it's view-able / hear-able from several angles. 


The Dm6/ G9 (all wrapped up into one chord) moving to A is sort of like the iv to bVII7 type of movement. but your shedding the light on the D#m7b5 was a real eye/ear treat. Thank you.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #66 
Here's an excerpt from Ted's "Glued to the Blues, 1987-03-15"
A bit longer than some of the other examples in this thread...but a nice one that you might like.

Attached Images
jpeg Glued_to_the_Blues,_1987-03-15,_excerpt_1.jpg (88.11 KB, 18 views)


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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #67 
For Saturday: another excerpt from "Learning to Use Altered Dominants...1986-05-28"

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jpeg Learning_to_Use_Altered_Dominants...1986-05-28,_Excerpt_3.jpg (40.11 KB, 16 views)


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barbaralovedcats

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Reply with quote  #68 
Paul,  I couldn't get the sound of this one out of my mind. It's beautiful, in my opinion.   Then I thought, hmmmm...  Someday My Prince Will Come. 

In the attached version, pdf file, if Ted's progression is simply transposed to F C#7#9 Gm C7 (as the first example from the line you used shows the etc means the progression continues after the m7 chord to the dom7 chord up a P4th. e.g. Gm to C7.) it sounds to me like it fits,  when transposed down a whole step, the 9th, 10th , 11th and 12 measures of "Someday" in the key it's in in the pdf attached.   I'd like to see a version of Ted's "Someday My Prince Will Come" if only to see if he uses this "move" in that place in that song.  I don't really see how he could avoid it. But where there is a way, Ted could find it.    There is a not so uncommon movement of I-  bIIIdim - iim7-V7 found in a few fake books from what I hear.  The  bIIIdim smoooothly moving down to the iim7  e.g. G - Bbdim - Am7 - D7    Or, if transposed down a whole step in order to fit the harmony in the pdf of "Someday" to F- Abdim-Gm - C7.   the Bbdim chord, in general, sounds almost identical to the Eb7#9 in the excerpt,   So, when the progression is moved down a whole step, and we end up with the C#7#9 (Db7#9) then the Ab dim in the pdf of "Someday" can easily be replaced (sorry about that Mr. Ab dim) by the C#7#9 in Ted's move-of-the day.  I hope this makes sense.  If not, I would hope and ask that a moderator please delete this flight of fancy asap.

In any event, it's another gorgeous and useful example by Maestro Theodore. :-)    I sincerely appreciate your hipping all of us to this one.  


I am not trying to teach anything here, just pointing out how I was able to tie this masterpiece by TG into a song and some theory to explain it (so I can find other places for it).  Of course, theory being something that comes after the fact.

 
Attached Files
pdf someday_prince.pdf (201.06 KB, 10 views)

barbaralovedcats

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Reply with quote  #69 
Underneath the example where this particular Ted's Move of the Day came from I noticed that kind Ted kindly mentioned that:  "The bVI7#9 is highly related to the i diminished 7 color."     It is solely my opinion that Ted's words "highly related" seem to be an operative idea in that phrase of Ted's since "technically speaking" the i diminished 7 color does not contain the #9 of the bVI7#9, but it does contain the b9.  And I've heard it said that whenever a #9 can be used, then the b9 is ordinarily also acceptable.    Does this remind anybody of the principle that the VI7b9(or #9) is highly related to the # i dim 7 color"?   how many times have we all, when playing "rhythm" changes played I to #1 dim to ii to V where the #i dim 7 is replacing the VI7.  So, with some experimenting, which is what the Moves of the Day get me to do, I have a new friend, e.g. in places of the VI in a I VI ii V or even a iii VI ii V i have started replacing the VI with bVI7#9 . e.g in Rhythm changes, straight- Bb G Cm  F. Now I have the choice of Bb to B dim 7 Cm  F7 (B dim, #i dim 7 serving as the VI), or, using the power of this Move of the Day, or replacing the VI with the bVI7#9 - Bb to Gb7#9 to Cm  to F   or even the highly related i dim 7 color, Bb to Bbdim7 to Cm to F7.   That move of Ted's raising the #9 in the soprano to the 3rd before moving on to the iim7 is sweeter than honey. 
     
Since i diminished 7 and biii diminished 7 are the same notes, this point raised by Ted about the i dim 7 and bVI7#9 being highly related has suddenly simplified at least one aspect of life for me in this type of progression since instead of thinking I  to biii dim   to iim  to  V7  it's easier for me to "think"  I to I dim to iim to V7 as in the last sentence of the paragraph above.  

If i recall correctly, didn't Ted also put forth the idea in measure 6 of some blues forms to use the i dim. Some sources, such as Joe Pass' out of print Blues Encounters, mention in measure 6 to use the #IV diminished.  I dim and #4 dim are the same thing, enharmonically,  so typical Ted, laying things down as straightforward as they can get.  

In that regard Ted seems to have followed one of Albert Einstein's teaching maxims "Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler."  


goldglob

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Reply with quote  #70 
Quote:
Originally Posted by barbaralovedcats
Underneath the example where this particular Ted's Move of the Day came from I noticed that kind Ted kindly mentioned that:  "The bVI7#9 is highly related to the i diminished 7 color."     It is solely my opinion that Ted's words "highly related" seem to be an operative idea in that phrase of Ted's since "technically speaking" the i diminished 7 color does not contain the #9 of the bVI7#9, but it does contain the b9.  And I've heard it said that whenever a #9 can be used, then the b9 is ordinarily also acceptable.    Does this remind anybody of the principle that the VI7b9(or #9) is highly related to the # i dim 7 color"?   how many times have we all, when playing "rhythm" changes played I to #1 dim to ii to V where the #i dim 7 is replacing the VI7.  So, with some experimenting, which is what the Moves of the Day get me to do, I have a new friend, e.g. in places of the VI in a I VI ii V or even a iii VI ii V i have started replacing the VI with bVI7#9 . e.g in Rhythm changes, straight- Bb G Cm  F. Now I have the choice of Bb to B dim 7 Cm  F7 (B dim, #i dim 7 serving as the VI), or, using the power of this Move of the Day, or replacing the VI with the bVI7#9 - Bb to Gb7#9 to Cm  to F   or even the highly related i dim 7 color, Bb to Bbdim7 to Cm to F7.   That move of Ted's raising the #9 in the soprano to the 3rd before moving on to the iim7 is sweeter than honey. 
     
Since i diminished 7 and biii diminished 7 are the same notes, this point raised by Ted about the i dim 7 and bVI7#9 being highly related has suddenly simplified at least one aspect of life for me in this type of progression since instead of thinking I  to biii dim   to iim  to  V7  it's easier for me to "think"  I to I dim to iim to V7 as in the last sentence of the paragraph above.  

If i recall correctly, didn't Ted also put forth the idea in measure 6 of some blues forms to use the i dim. Some sources, such as Joe Pass' out of print Blues Encounters, mention in measure 6 to use the #IV diminished.  I dim and #4 dim are the same thing, enharmonically,  so typical Ted, laying things down as straightforward as they can get.  

In that regard Ted seems to have followed one of Albert Einstein's teaching maxims "Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler."  




Couple of things:
Thinking of 'colour' as scale rather than just chord, then the #9 (F#) in Eb7#9 is of course part of the Gdim (or Bbdim) colour.

Yes, (in key G) Bb dim instead of E7 (G#dim) is another way of weaving through 'Rhythm Changes',  and Gershwin's "I've got Rhythm" did of course use both in the first 4 bars:
  |  G G#o | Am7 D7 | G/B Bbo | Am7 D7 |,
but I thought it might be worth clarifying  that '"instead of" does not mean "substituting for".
G#o substitutes for E7b9 , but Bbo is a reharmonization...completely different scale, different colour. A lot of standards use  bIII dim like this where you might expect VI, but if the Bass player is playing around E7 your Bbo will not sound right.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #71 
Nice and simple. From "Diatonic Contrary Motion Progressions, 1992-05-09." 
Now let's give it some chord names.

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jpeg Diatonic_Contrary_Motion_Progressions,_1992-05-09,_Excerpt_1.jpg (42.56 KB, 18 views)


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barbaralovedcats

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Reply with quote  #72 
I am calling each grid a chord, even when only one or two notes-  from left to right I've come up with A to G# dim to F#m to E7 to DM9 to C#mi7(11) to Bm(6/7) to E11 to AM9.   Beautiful extensions and voice leading.   Ted deserves a big round of applause for stopping off at the V, or alternatively, following the Bm type with an E7 type, before returning to A.    The man is a genius. I'm telling you that the man is a genius. 

I might try the new single serving nachos at Taco Bell for $1.49 as this one is so nice and simple that there is no way that the powers that be can afford to give out bonus points on this one. :-)

  
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #73 
Okay, put the tacos on my tab.
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barbaralovedcats

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Reply with quote  #74 
Thank you, Paul. That is very kind.  I'll just get a couple of crunchy ones on the Dollar Cravings Menu.


barbaralovedcats

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Reply with quote  #75 
Getting back, for a moment, to the bVI7#9 Ted Chord Move of the Day and the discussion about Ted's comment on the idim7, etc - 

I want to say "Thank you very much" to Goldglob.  I for one appreciate very much the ideas you provided about how to carefully use that particular Ted Chord Move of the Day e.g. with a bass player.   

I have benefited greatly from your information packed, yet succinct, post about the following progression: |  G G#o | Am7 D7 | G/B Bbo | Am7 D7 |      If you had not mentioned it then I am almost certain that I'd have never likely realized, been aware of, nor understood the two distinct uses of the Dim chords in bars 1 and 3 and the delicate issues that could arise with a bass player playing certain bass notes at certain points in the progression.   I needn't say more except that information you shared via your participation in this specific bVI7#9 Ted Chord Move of the day has taken my thinking and playing to a more musical level due to the avenues opened up by the information you shared. 



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