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MarioAbbagliati

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal9000
The Guitarist's Guide to Composing and Improvising?  Sounds good, I just put it in my Amazon shopping cart....thanks! 


You won't regret it.  Be prepared to challenge your perception of the instrument.
RobertW

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Reply with quote  #32 
Modal banter... Interesting stuff. What does all this stuff have to do with playing Bye Bye Black bird? Seriously though... I gathered tones of gems from the maestro and Ted did  seem to have a certain aversion to modal concepts and practice. My interpretation of his thinking process was to aspire to the understanding of stable tones chordal quality, exhaustive knowledge of inversion (voicing groups) and lastly upper extensions. I was very fortunate (personal feeling...) to have been exposed to GEORGE RUSSELL'S book 'THE LYDIAN CHROMATIC CONCEPT OF TONAL ORGANIZATION FOR IMPROVISATION' at about the same time Ted's Single Note Soloing VOL 1&2 were released. In Mr. Russell's book I found similarities in addressing and harmonic landscapes from simple to the ragingly complex modal pieces such as FALL, BLUE IN GREEN, etc.. Russell's concepts helped me as a young improviser , 30 years ago, get a peak over the proverbial single line / harmony fence. With some work and patience one can find many personal jewels. Understanding harmony is a collective life long process that Ted's work helped make a little clearer for us all... spinning relevant lines in more challenging harmonic waters such as the tunes mentioned earlier can be further enhanced and personalized by way of Teds SNS vols.1&2 and Georges Russells Concepts. Pat Martino, who Ted was a big fan off has some truly brilliant perspectives on symmetrical harmony and applications to standard and non standard progressions in his Creative Concepts books vols. 1&2.  Anybody out there work with Ted on his concepts of Chromatic Rows & Voicing Groups?
NickStasinos

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Reply with quote  #33 

Hi Jerome,

 

Pointing back to an earlier post in this string, when I wrote "and I will not be selecting a tune from "All Blues", I had a senior moment and was referring to Miles Davis' album "Kind of Blue" which I love forwards and backwards (no creepy subliminal messages either).  Those tunes were designed with modal playing and would confuse the issue.  It may be a mute point at this late hour, but I promised an example. Lets take "Satin Doll" with lots of key changes (ii V galore).  Here's how I would play over these changes:  

 

C major scale ---------

Dm7  G7 | Dm7  G7 |

 

D major scale---------

Em7  A7  | Em7  A7 |

 

G maj.---   Gb maj.----  C maj. scales 

Am7  D7 |  Abm7  Db7 | C        | 

 

Tonal centers, right?  Of course, Ted would stress playing the extended tones such as the 7ths, 9ths, etc.

 

From what I have read here on this string, so far, is that there is agreement that there are advantages in thinking both scales and modes, depending on the song.  Why not think modes over "So What!"?  It begs for it!  But, in the three decades I have spent studying with Ted, I have never heard him say "This is where you think tonal centers and there is where you think modes."  Any thoughts?

 

Nick


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jerome

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Reply with quote  #34 

Hello Nick,

Your example describes Tonal Center thinking perfectly. As I stated in an earlier post I would use/think modes when playing So What or Impressions.

 

Regardless of whether the song is Tonal or Modal, improvisation is more than this or that scale fits this or that chord. Scales are one slice of the pie, arpeggios are another, phrasing & ear training are others.

 

I think that the hardest part of improvisation is developing a melodic sensibility. Being able to play melodies on the spur of the moment; good, memorable, hummable melodies is a goal for which we should all strive.

 

When I was at GIT, Joe Pass stressed learning songs above everything. Becoming intimately familiar with the melody and harmony of a song allows us to relax and play from as deep inside as we are capable at the moment.

 

I can't begin to speculate on the reasons why Ted didn't tell you to use modes for So What and Tonal Centers for All The Things You Are or, as you mentioned in your original post why he refused to discuss modes with you. I once saw a video of a workshop he did at GIT in 1992 or 1993 where he described modes as harmonic color and demonstrated with chords not scales.

 

Later,

Jerome

Hal9000

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Reply with quote  #35 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertW
Anybody out there work with Ted on his concepts of Chromatic Rows & Voicing Groups?

 

 

was that the subject about prime series retrograde and inversion transformations where a rising interval inverts to a falling interval?  We talked about it and I understood none of it.  I still read about it but have not yet done anything with it other than to confuse myself. 

 

barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #36 
Here is a sheet Ted gave me that has possible pertinence to the previous discussion titled "Hearing The Different Tonalities:"
by direct 'no modes' comparisons

Attached Images
jpeg Hearing_Tonalities.jpg (402.33 KB, 548 views)


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Barbara Franklin

barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #37 
And here is the subsequent page:

Attached Images
jpeg Tonality_Types.jpg (412.51 KB, 450 views)


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Barbara Franklin

NickStasinos

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Reply with quote  #38 

Just a word about printing these pages that Barbara posted today. 

 

If you are using Internet Explorer and try to print from the browser, there is not much as far as adjusting what you print and you will just get a corner of the page. 

 

Better solution:  Right click on the image and select from menu that appears "Save Target As."  Make sure you save it to where you can find it again such as to your desktop.  Once it is on your computer, you will have more control over how to print it and get the whole page to print out.

 

Nick


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skotrock

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Reply with quote  #39 
Thore are great- Thanks Barbara !
jerome

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Reply with quote  #40 

Hi Nick (and everyone else),

I apologize for taking so long to post this analysis. I wanted to be sure to use a standard tune with some interesting choices that included both major and minor tonal centers. Hopefully, this will be helpful to folks who are grappling with the improvisation gorilla.

My Best to All,

jerome 

Attached Images
jpeg All_Of_Me.jpg (922.92 KB, 427 views)

RobertW

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal9000

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertW
Anybody out there work with Ted on his concepts of Chromatic Rows & Voicing Groups?

 

 

was that the subject about prime series retrograde and inversion transformations where a rising interval inverts to a falling interval?  We talked about it and I understood none of it.  I still read about it but have not yet done anything with it other than to confuse myself. 

 


No... but another good topic. I just found the pages Ted had written out and will post them shortly as PDF files. This was always a head scratcher even when discussing with Ted... he always seemed a bit perplexed when I brought the subject up... I had to refresh his memory... but I have the sheets. Some wild close harmony explorations.
ChemicalChords

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Posts: 78
Reply with quote  #42 
How was Ted thinking about improvising when it came to a two chord vamp tune such as Impressions or when it came to a fast change tune like Giant Steps. I got this book by a fellow named Mark Levine, it is called "The Jazz Theory Book". In that book he refers to everything in terms of modes and deriving it from the major scale or the melodic minor scale and so on. The teacher of my class , Joey Sellers, a trombonist, thinks of everything in modes. But when I go through Ted's SNS series ( Im still on like pg. 20 after 2yrs. god help me) he notates everything as arpeggio patterns. More chordal as opposed to scalar where Mark and my teacher think in more scalar terms then chordal. It seems like horn players have it a bit easier when it comes to improvising in the beginning because for them the melody if this more prue color right in front of there face for them to manipulate (it always sounds way more fluid where its just this single line that melds with the harmonic background) where for guitarist (or more specifically me) its like doing the jump jive back and forth across the fretboard trying to wank out these arpegiatted patterns that sound like you just making the cut because you played the right notes. I want to know how you go about connecting one note to the next (did that come out right?). Im ranting right now. Feel free to join in. Thanks!

Sam

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GregB

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Reply with quote  #43 
Gosh, here I am opening up an old thread again.

I love the "Key Center" concept but I absolutely see the need for understanding modes as well.  I think of musical lines as both key centers and modes simultaneously.  Here's an example:

Think of the opening chords to "How High the Moon".  We start with G Maj7 and then do that typical jazz trick of changing the Maj7 to a minor and making that minor the ii of a new ii V I.  That gives us

G Maj7 Gm7 C7 FMaj7

Then they do the same trick again of changing the FMaj7 to a minor and it becomes the ii chord

F Maj7  Fm7 Bb7 Eb Maj 7

Which gives us the entire sequence of

G Maj7 Gm7 C7 FMaj7 Fm7 Bb7 Eb Maj 7

The Key Center concept has me thinking
G Maj7 - Play  G major Scale
Gm7 C7 FMaj7  - A ii V I in F so play F major
Fm7 Bb7 Eb Maj 7 - A ii V I in Eb so play Eb major.

But at the same time I'm thinking
G Maj7 - Play  G major Scale

Gm7 C7 FMaj7  - A ii V I in F and G Dorian is the same as F so simply change from G Major to G Dorian

Fm7 Bb7 Eb Maj 7 - A ii V I in Eb and G Phrygian is the same as Eb Major so simply change from G Dorian to G Phrygian.

This way I'm not bouncing all around the neck trying to find my major scales to match the key centers.  That kind of bouncing tends to make my solos sound like
Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do in G
Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do in F
Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do in Eb  

As with most things, it's not one concept or the other, there is a middle way that works really well.  Both concepts are tremendously useful. And the two together are a really powerful concept.


shawnjulie

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Reply with quote  #44 

i love this site!!!! Modes- here is my take. I really think modes didnt really become a buzz word till the whole jazz/rock fusion thing where there was alot of static harmony going by. When i talk to the older guitar players it was always about navitgating through the changes and tonal centres and embelishing the melody.When i listen and transcribe Django i see him arpeggiating through the changes more than running scales(although there is scalar runs) Parker is doing the same as well as using lots of the tensions and passing tones and encircling chord tones. Also music is always evolving so 1930's players play different than 40's players than 50's player etc.... that is my take

dsindel

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Reply with quote  #45 
Interesting, I have always been stumped by the ever present mystery surrounding "modes" as well. I can burn through scales just as any other dude out there but I asked Ted about modes and why they are so confusing (everyone teaches them differently) needless to say, some air was "lost in his balloon" so to speak.

Best advice Ted could give me is not to get so caught up in wearing some kind of a badge of honor by playing leads in Phrygian or whatever (LOL) but think of modes as a way to color the sound. Ted gave me the modes written out in what he called "Shades of Color" (from light to dark) and laid it out in triad chord scales. He made mention that this is how many a song writer would create new sounds by starting on a new degree i.e Aeolian (the 1st degree would now be a minor chord etc...)

Well I am sure I am not adding anything new here but I gotta admit modes still stump me when the chips are down.


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