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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #76 
Hi Paul:

Regarding diminished seventh chords with an added major 7th above the root, I think the confusion arises if one considers the added major 7th as another seventh.  It's not REALLY another seventh, it's a "tension" added above the already complete seventh chord.  The situation is unique in that it's possible to add a tension above the complete structure and stay within the octave.  Adding the first possible tension to any other seventh chord takes you beyond the octave.  No other structure would allow one to do this.

Regarding a dominant seventh with a flat nine in the bass, I guess I'd have to admit to being old fashioned in my view that you just don't put ninths in the bass (not the true bass, anyway).  Now I haven't really given it much "theoretical" thought, but I'd wager that there's always a better explanation for such a beast, at least in tonal music.

I'm reminded of the reaction to Arnold Schoenberg's string sextet "Verklarte Nacht" or "Tranfigured Night" (1899) in which there appears a ninth chord with the ninth in the bass.  He was abruptly told by the theorists of the day that he can't do that, to which he responded (and I'm paraphrasing), "I guess I can't perform it then, since one can't perform what doesn't exist."  It's a very beautiful piece, nonetheless.  Tonal, but very chromatic.

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
TLerch

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Reply with quote  #77 
Since the grids arent labeled regarding frets, lets say that the first diagram is has a 10 left of the lowest note. Then the progression could be
D7b9  G6/D  D7#9  Gmaj7/D  V7 I V7 I with pedal bass

TLerch

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Reply with quote  #78 
Here's some input into the Dom13 b9 with b9 in the bass question, look at Chord Chemistry on page 46 , top of the page, second chord.  Ignoring the optional notes we have our voicing in question. I have a new edition and I don't know if the page numbers correspond with older editions. If they don't look for the Dom13b9 heading in the pages of dominant 7 section. It also appears as 13b9 on page 61 of Modern Chord Progressions in line 6  thru 8 in various forms. As well as on subsequent pages. It is interesting that TG doesn't bother to label the chord with the / bass, just calls it 13b9. I also appears on the next string set up in the same voicing on subsequent pages.
I'm comfortable with many names for any particular chord especially this one, since it is, like David and Mike have said earlier a RVL chord with diminished cycle leanings.  As we know, rootless dom7b9 and dim7 are the same thing. (at least in content if not function). But as Mike pointed out the interesting aspect of this endeavor is to discover what Ted might have called the chord.
thanks
Tim

PaulV

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Reply with quote  #79 
Tim,
For the last example, Ted didn't number the frets because it is in the first position.
So your chords are correct, but just need to be transposed to the key of C.
On this page Ted did write the names. (although he doesn't use the slash "/" to show bass notes.  For some reason he avoided this.  Perhaps he didn't think an inversion needed to be named differently from a root position chord...which, I tend to agree with him, but I've gotten so used to the aid of that bass note that its become a crutch for me.
--Paul

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--Paul
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #80 
David,
Can you explain more about "tension" notes added to chords other than a diminished 7th chord?  Especially examples that are within and beyond the octave.
Thanks.
--Paul


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klasaine

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Reply with quote  #81 
I'm quoting 'bishopdm' ...
    
"regarding a dominant seventh with a flat nine in the bass, I guess I'd have to admit to being old fashioned in my view that you just don't put ninths in the bass (not the true bass, anyway).  Now I haven't really given it much "theoretical" thought, but I'd wager that there's always a better explanation for such a beast, at least in tonal music."

The Jobim tune "Wave" usually has a Bbdim7 listed as the second chord (2nd bar) of the melody. I really feel it's an A triad w/the b9 in the bass (Dmaj7 - A/Bb). I also think of the 1st chord of "Stella by Starlight" as A/Bb or A13/Bb.
I don't know - food for thought?

Great discussion by the way.

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ken lasaine
TLerch

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Reply with quote  #82 
Yes Ken, i see that chord in Wave as V7b9 setting up a ii V7 of IV.  It looks like it's vii dim7 which usually likes to resolve to I but in this case is does another job.
Its interesting to note that the original 1st chord to Stella (according to Ted) is Bbdim7  - i dim. I think most of us know it only from the more modern interpretation that lives in real books etc as Emin7b5 A7.
It seems that many tunes that used diminished chords (especially i dim7) in their original form were changed by jazz players in this way. Perhaps the dim7 was felt to be old fashioned sounding. I personally love it and like to put the dim7 back in to tunes that had it originally.
No particular point to make here just enjoying the subject and the different perspectives.
Tim

bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #83 
Hi Paul:

Tension is just another name for an extension (a 9th is a tension/extension).  I don't now what we should call the first available tension of a diminished seventh chord since its within the octave.  It seems that calling it a major seventh suggests that the chord has two sevenths, which is confusing.

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #84 
Hi Ken:

I'm really not out to change anyone's mind about b9s appearing in the bass, but I believe the Bbdim7 in the Jobim tune could be heard as "more about" the V/IV than the intervening ii/V/IV.  But I'm open to consider other, different examples.

Does anyone know of ANY examples in Chord Chemistry of a ninth chord (other than a dominant b9) where the ninth is placed in the bass?  If they were really useful, I would bet that Ted would have included them.

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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
klasaine

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Reply with quote  #85 
9th in the bass of a (dominant?) chord, not a b9:
(In CC probably only as sus or 11th chords?) but ...

I can think of lots of add9 in the bass of triads, especially in pop music. It kind of acts like a sus chord.
On a gig last night I played 'Dancing in the Streets'. The verse groove is F to Eb/F (or, you could call that 2nd chord Fsus but that doesn't really function - it's an Eb triad with F in the bass).

This voicing that guitar players use as an 11th chord a lot ...
 from high to low: C A F G - "I" usually name it F/G.

I guess these are really all sus chords though - ?




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ken lasaine
bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #86 
Yes, that supposed 9th in the bass is really the root.
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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #87 
There's a song by Ted that I'm writing up now that has a C# pedal tone for a series of chords, which at one spot there's a B7 chord with a moving line. 
So for that "snapshot" you could call it B9 with the 9th in the bass. 
However, I tend to see pedal tones and chords that are passing through (or around or on top of it) as separate entities.  Something similar to what Tim called RVL (Result of Voice Leading).  Maybe we could add another term, RPT (Result of Pedal Tone).
If you guys want I could put this excerpt here, or wait for the November New Items.
--Paul


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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #88 
Sure, Paul, if you wouldn't mind.  Don't want to spoil the November New Items, though... 
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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #89 
Just a quick glance at the Major add9 chords in Chord Chemistry reveals a couple of 9ths in the lowest voice (e.g., line 4, second and sixth examples).  I wonder if Ted would have extended his warning of placing a sixth in the bass (see top of same page, at least in my edition) to placing a ninth in the bass, for the same reason.  There are so many questions I would have liked to ask him! 
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David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
barbarafranklin

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Reply with quote  #90 
Paul, if you are referring to the TG Chorale -  Ted used mostly "traditional" voice leading ala J.S. Bach - whom he was studying assiduously at the time (1974). 

Ted told me he generally adhered to Bach's basic "rules" regarding voice leading, most logical movement without compromising the melody. 
Ted also told me that second to the melody, the bass line was of utmost importance.
Since I can't read the grids without transcribing them, I don't know if he kept to that rule for his chord examples & lesson material.   My guess is that he took liberties because he wasn't as concerned (if at all) with the melody line.  It probably depended upon the particular study.

Based on this perhaps it will enable you to name the chords more appropriately?   Obviously there are going to be some anomalies - this discussion is a case in point.   But his thinking never veered too far from Bach's for the most part.  I hope this helps a little bit.

Also Paul,  send David the TG Chorale if you wish, it's okay.  Barb




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Barbara Franklin
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