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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #61 
The chord in question appears in the example in the first post in this current thread.  It involves the second chord.  The first chord is a Bm7, and the third chord is a A triad. So, to call it a E13(b9) is logical, as it is simply fits as the dominant in this ii-V-I progression. 
If you wanted to call that chord a Dm/maj7, technically the voices support that interpretation.  So that progression would be:  ii - iv min/maj7 - I.

Kontiki, in light of your recent explanation of the beautiful use of the min/maj7 as a substitute for the IV chord (or iv chord), I think that this is a very valid analysis. 
Perhaps both are correct.

However, that page has similar progressions, and all the examples seem to start with a ii-V-I.  Examples #1 and #2 could be viewed as you describe.  Example #3 is a bit different.  It's in the key of F, and the second chord really can't be analyzed as a iv min/maj7 (Bbm/maj7), but could be as a Bbdim (add 9).  It just fits better as a C7(b9) in my book.
Example #4 could also be the iv for the second chord, if one wishes to view it that way.
This is good for me to think iv.  It's a great sound that I was overlooking as a substitute device.
Thanks for your insights!
--Paul

Update:  this is wrong....Not min/maj7, but dim(maj7)....disregard above!


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #62 
Paul, perhaps I'm mistaken,  but I think there's a slight misunderstanding here. The chord I was pushing for is a "diminished with a major 7th" in the first few progression in this thread, and not a "min/maj7"  I get the impression you are thinking (in light of the substitution ideas i gave for "min/maj7" in another thread) that you thinking I'm pushing for a "min/maj7" here, but I'm not. I was "rooting" for a "diminished with a major 7th".

sorry if it's me who's misunderstood.

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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #63 

Here's one possible take:

This isn't a progression of chords at all, but a single chord in three different inversions, with one passing tone in the top voice and bottom voice.  The chord being prolonged is D7sus, the first chord, and it appears next in third inversion (seventh in the bass) and last in second inversion (fifth in the bass).  The B in the top voice of the second chord is a "nonchord" tone (an accented passing tone), on the way from A to C.  The B in the bottom voice of the third chord is the same type of passing tone, moving from C down to A.  At all times, the complete D7sus is present, although a bit obscured when the Bs are in play.  This is a completely linear way of hearing these four harmonies (or one harmony, as the case may be).  I think kontiki had it absolutely right when he wrote that "that third chord is a complete result of counterpoint and voice leading between the chords that precede and follow it."  When I first played this example, I was immediately struck by how much each chord sounded alike, even with the moving voices.

Wonder what Ted thought?


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David Bishop
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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #64 
David,
   I agree with you. The whole thing could be seen and heard as an "extended voice exchange" on the Vsus chord. One could resolve directly to I (Gmaj) from the last chord, therefore it would be more of a D7sus/A than an Am11. 

P.S. your use of the term "Big Picture" makes me wonder if you are familiar with and perhaps influenced by "schenkerian analysis".

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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #65 
Is it that obvious?
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David Bishop
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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #66 
Well, to me it kind of is, though I haven't run into many people who are, since I left school, which was quite a while back
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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #67 
It's certainly not something that comes up in polite conversation! 
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David Bishop
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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #68 
Kontiki,
Oops...yes, I guess that's not min/maj7, but dim(maj7) as you mentioned.
My mistake.
Hmmm...I guess I still favor the dominant interpretation.
--Paul


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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #69 
Here's another one from Ted's undated files:
--Paul

Attached Images
jpeg Ted_Fragments_2.jpg (16.49 KB, 25 views)


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #70 
Paul,
   I didn't expect you to change your mind. My point was that in the diminished lesson sheet that i referred to, Ted called that exact voicing a diminished with a major 7th. Iwas wondering if you've seen that same voicing written as a 13b9 with the b9 in the bass anywhere in Ted's lessons? 
I seems to me that the goal is to determine what Ted would have called that chord, and not what we would like it to be called. But I guess you would know better since you studied with him.

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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #71 
Quote:
It's certainly not something that comes up in polite conversation!  

David, yeah, them could be fightin' words among certain academics.

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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #72 
I try to keep it under my hat... 
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David Bishop
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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #73 
Kontiki,
I don't know what Ted would say about the chord(s) in question.  You can hear him talk about diminished chords in the Mark Levy recorded lessons.  He often sees diminished chords often functioning as dom. 7(b9) -- but not always.  He also likes to see the I dim resolving to the I chord....something that is often mislabeled.  Yes, he did like the diminished with the added natural 7th on top, and in some of Ted's early pages he liked to refer to the diminished 7th chord as a minor 6th (b5), that somehow got changed to being called diminished 7th -- a diminished triad with a bb7 added.  So, perhaps he was addressing the conflict of the diminished 7th with the added natural 7th.  Can't have two 7th's, can we?
Hmmm...
(I'm grateful that in this website we're all pretty civilized and polite in our discussions here.  The moment the temperature begins to rise will bethe time I bow out!)
--Paul


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #74 
Paul,
   I'm pretty passionate about these things, and I'm sure you are, but like I've said before, I have the utmost respect for Ted and this site, and for what you yourself  are doing here, so in the end I will defer to you. I mean that respectfully. But along the way I will try to argue my views . But please don't misunderstand my tone. It's one of playful and argumentative, but humble respect.

Mike

P.S.  where are these Mark Levy lessons that I see many people referring too? I can"t seem to find them.

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #75 
Kontiki (Mike!)
I appreciate anyone who has a passion for music (or anything for that matter)!  One of the reasons for these discussions (at least for me) is to learn new perspectives and other information that I wouldn't normally glean from the printed page.  I consider the musicians who visit this website to be of a very high caliber, and from diverse musical backgrounds.  Like Tim, I don't have a lot classical training, so that aspect is often new for me. 
Please don't get me wrong, I have not sensed anything but respect on these boards, so don't worry about being passionate in presenting your views.  Please continue to do so!
(I've seen some pretty ugly discussions on other music forums. Ted was all about kindness and respect and learning and sharing, so I'm glad that is reflected here).
Please don't think of me as any kind of final word on these things. Let's always see if we can find the answer in Ted's teachings.
Here is the link to the thread for downloading Mark Levy's recorded lessons with Ted:  http://forums.tedgreene.com/post?id=1403308
These recordings are an absolute must; every one a real gems!

Okay....so, somebody label the chords on the last example.
One note about that one:  he labeled it as, "Pedal bass, chromatic melody."
--Paul


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