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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #46 
I agree. 
However, I'm don't like min7(b9)...it's an oddball chord.  The top 4 voices of this example spells D7, so maybe my ears are hearing this as a D7/B.  Hmm....
--Paul


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #47 
I don't like the m7b9  that much either, but it does occur diatonically on a III chord, and Ted clearly labels a chord Am7b9  in this blues: http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/blues/BluesInG_TedGreene.pdf
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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #48 
Bmin7(b9) is not very common but in this example I think it fits perfectly as the voices move. iii with the b9 is often avoided in favor of natural 9 by jazz guys and for some reason it has become acceptable even though it introduces a non diatonic note. But if voice leading is the issue, the b9 on the iii chord here is the best name. Your right about that 1st D9 chord Paul,  quite a stretch.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #49 
Here's the final one from Ted' page:
--Paul

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jpeg 2000-11-16,_part_6.jpg (43.44 KB, 23 views)


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #50 
Well the problematic one is the third one.

I see it as D7sus Cmaj13  Cmaj13/B  Am11

the only problem is that for the Cmaj13/B  the fret marker is in the 7th fret. I don't know if that means anything. I definitely wouldn't want to call it a Bm7#5b9 when it just seems like a C chord with a B in the bass which is moving from a root position C chord to an Amin.  it's a typical voice exchange type progression. And that's why Ted's progressions are sometimes so hard to analyze and how they are similar to Bach's progressions. One has to analyze it horizontally (voice leading) as well as vertically (chord harmony). That third chord is a complete result of counterpoint and voice leading between the chords that precede and follow it and ins't really supposed to be analyzed as an isolated chord and doesn't function as anything besides a type of passing chord.

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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #51 
Yes, The 3rd chord. I understand the reluctance to call it a Bmin type chord. Bmin7b6b9 would be the name but who wants to see that on a chart. But if a chart did ask for Bmin7b6b9 this is probably what I'd play! and Ted does seem to be using the "fret # to the left is the root" system on all the other chords. I could also be very happy with Cmaj13/B. Could be Gadd9sus4 in 1st inversion, how about Amin11/B, Emin11b6/B haha. It's just one of those voicings that has just a bit too much of the adjacent chord in it to give it a simple name.
  I agree with Kontiki about the voice leading but it's kinda fun to stretch the mind and ears and try and call it something.
kontiki

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Reply with quote  #52 
Yes, I agree. Yet i don't recall ever seeing a b6. I usually see them as #5 or b13 but my memory could be playing tricks with me from lack of sleep   But I'm sure someone will find an example in Chord Chemistry to prove me wrong....
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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #53 
For the 3rd chord:  How about just calling it "a stack of 4ths with a B in the bass" ?
Other than that, my vote is for the Cmaj13/B.  That's a pretty common thing for this kind of progression.
--Paul


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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #54 
I have an idea how about calling chords like this RVL  (the result of voice leading) save us all a bunch of trouble ! Kontiki, I think b6 or b13 is better cause the chord has a natural 5th (implied) figuring we are dealing with notes that are diatonic to the key of G major, the G note would be the b6th degree of B. picking nits I know thats what we're here for right!
kontiki

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Reply with quote  #55 
Yes, I agree about calling it a b13 or b6  because of the implied perfect 5th, but I was just thinking that b13 is more commonly seen than b6. Plus I'm partial to calling them 13ths or 11th or 9ths when there's a 7th present. I'm not sure Ted agreed with that approach. I see many chords labeled something like 7/6 (or somethig like that) in his works. But yes, we are nit picking, what's more important is how something functions and sounds in a given context than what it's called. But yes, we are here for that
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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #56 
Here's the complete page on Contrary Motion from Ted.
More samples to come later....

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jpeg 2000-11-16,_Prettier,MoreUpdateDiatMajKeyContraryMotionChordProg.jpg (736.77 KB, 59 views)


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bishopdm

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Reply with quote  #57 
What I find fascinating about the last progression (the only one I've actually looked at and thought about) are the notes that are common to each vertical collection (ADGC) and the two notes that do not appear (E and F-sharp).  Suggest anything to anyone (think BIG picture)?
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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #58 
David,
Tell us the BIG picture perspective.....

In the meantime, I've got a collection of more tidbits from Ted's private undated "fragments"
The first is an exercise for the student to write in the fret number for each dyad.  The two notes are the 3rd and 7th (or 6th) of the chord name.
Give us your fret numbers.
--Paul

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jpeg Ted_Fragments_1.jpg (59.28 KB, 25 views)


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #59 
I based mine on the presumption (that could be mistaken) that a fret marker indicated the position of the root (preferring the lower one when possible), and that the fret marker couldn't come before the first fret of the grid (dyad) in question.

 the first number = first fret in grid,   and second number = fret marker (root )

Cmaj7 9/10        A6 4/5         Gmaj7 9/10        D6 4/5        EbM7 11/11                

C#m7  2/4(or 2)        F#7sus 9/9        Ab7sus  4/4       Bsus2  4/7 (or 4)   

 Esus2  4/7(or 5)              Eb7 5/6               Eb7  11/11

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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #60 
Sorry to go back in time, but I was taking a look at the Diminished lesson page that Ted wrote out, and there's the chord that some here  wanted to call a 13b9 with the b9 in the bass (in some of the early progression in this thread). But Ted calls it a  DimMaj7, which I was pushing for. Can any proponents of the 13b9/b9 chord find any evidence that Ted would have considered it as such?


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