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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #16 
Interesting idea about the modulation Kontiki. I'm coming from a popular song/jazz world so your explanation of the french augmented 6th is a bit of a mystery to me. I read about these chords in classical theory but it doesn't make as much sense to me as what I'm used to. I'll have to dig into it a bit more.
The interesting thing about all the rootless dom7b9 chords in all of the examples is that none of them are complete dim7, most are missing the b5. I wonder if Ted was on a kick for this sound when he wrote these. I don't object to the dim7,  I love the dim7 especially the often overlooked  - one dim7 to one major or minor movement. But i guess it's the old if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....
I'm going to stick with Imaj7/5 moving to I7/5  for chord 3 and 4 since this is a very conventional move in this circumstance. but I agree that it's a minor detail
Thanks guys
Tim

PaulV

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Reply with quote  #17 
It would be great to have more people participate in this.
Here is example #4.
Someone else?

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jpeg 1987-01-10,_Part_4.jpg (187.62 KB, 52 views)


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #18 
Tim, regarding Augmented 6th chords, there's really no mystery. They're just fancy names for V of V chords. They're basically dominants that don't function like "classical" dominants  (where the tritone resolves into a 3rd and the seventh resloves inwards)  instead the the minor 7th in the chord resolves outwards into an octave, that's why they prefer to call them augmented 6ths instead of 7ths. But it's basically just a tritone sub.  The french one is a 7b5, the german is a just a 7th chord, and the italian has no fifth. And they almost always (in classical music) approach the V chord from a half step above (your basic tritone substition).

As for chord #8 in the 3rd example, it is a full diminished triad  F Ab Cb  with the 3rd in the bass, therefore I consider it a I diminished. It doesn't have a 7th but it doesn't need one. Before I started coming to this site I used to consider this chord a bIII diminished since one often sees it as a passing chord between ii and iii (and many people on the net do too) but I've come to be persuaded by Ted's view that it's a I diminished

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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #19 
Thanks for the info Kontiki. I'll chew on it in light of your clear explanation. Yep only 3 dim chords as/per Ted's way of looking at it.
Ok Paul I'll look but I won't respond till it looks like nobody else will. : )

PaulV

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Reply with quote  #20 
Tim....go for it!

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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
I was playing Tenderly today and there is a point in the song where it does a very similar thing, #4 min7b5 n and the down chromatically to 1.


Tim, I was wondering which version you were refering to. I imagine one could insert this progression into tenderly at the end, but i've never seen a realbook version with these chords.

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #22 
Okay, since no one has submitted names for the progression for exercise #4, I thought I'd do so:

Abm9/Eb  -   Gmaj7/D    -    Gb/Db           -   Cm7(b5)
Bm7         -    E7              -    Bbm7            -   Eb7(#9)
Abm11      -   D7(b5)/C   -    Db9              -   B7
Bbm7       -   A13/G         -    D(add9)/F#   -  G13/F  -  then resolve to Gb with a Db on top.

Tim, is this what you got?
--Paul


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #23 
Paul,  here's my 2 cents:

 I agree for the most part except

- the first 2 chords for me would be: CbMaj7/Eb   Cbm/Ebb    i.e. IV to a minor IV

- chord # 10  (which is quite an interesting one) I was thinking of as more of a Ab7b9b5/C. but it could just as well be what you said (it is more simple) even though it's missing the 3rd. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to agree with the D7b5/C.

- the resolution could have an F on top. This way both the bass and soprano move up a half step. sounds nice like that.


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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #24 
Kontiki,
Thanks for your comments. 
I'd have to disagree about the first chord, since Ted named the exercises on this page as "from ii/5" - meaning that the first chord of each example is a ii minor chord with the 5th in the bass.
The second chord, which I defined as Gmaj7/D, also works as the Cbm as you described.  I guess it could also be a Db7(sus4,b9) if we wanted to stretch it to be the V chord.
The final resolution is just a subjective thing, and I was hearing the melody go to a Db, but I also like your version with the top line moving to an F.  Nice.
Thanks for your input.  I'll post the complete page soon.
Should we continue with more of these?  I find it very educational to see how others view some of Ted's chords in the context of a progression.
--Paul


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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #25 
Here is the Ted's original full page for "Descending Chromatic Bass Progressions from ii7/5"
Find it here:
http://www.tedgreene.com/teaching/harmony.asp
You'll need to write in the chords yourself.

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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #26 
Paul,
  I would like to continue. It's just a shame that this thread, and also this forum doesn't have more people contributing. I don't quite understand. This site it a veritable Eldorado for musicians, especially guitarists.

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #27 
Here's the next round of tidbits from Ted.
Not too difficult, but pretty sounding.
Give them names.....
--Paul

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jpeg 2000-11-16,_part_1.jpg (106.28 KB, 24 views)


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #28 
chords 2 3 & 4 are simple enough (in my opinion): they are:  Gmaj7/F#  C/E  G/D

chord # 1 is a little ambiguous. are we still tryng to find a ii/5 as the first chord? if not it looks like a Gsus to me. it could also be an Am11.  But what about the fret marker being in the 7th fret? doesn't that mean that the root is in the 7th fret? does it usually mean that the root is present or not? if present, than it could be a D7sus. if not present  than probably the Am11.

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #29 
Kontiki,  This is from an entirely different page and the first chord isn't supposed to be a ii/5.  I think you're right on saying its a Gsus.  This series are about contrary motion.  Notice the bass line descending and the melody ascending.  There's also an inner line descending (starting from the 2nd chord). 
As far as fret numbers go, Ted has done a variety of different things, and I don't think we can pin him down to an absolute rule.  In his later years he began placing them to indicate the location of root (even if the root is not present!).  He talks about this in one of his recorded lessons...I believe one of the Mark Levy (Deparko) recordings.  In this case, the 7 corresponds to the D on the 3rd string, which would indicate a D7sus.  I guess either name works.
Great!

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Zorshelter

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Reply with quote  #30 
would really like to participate to everything on this forum, but for now I just can't, hope it'll change soon!!
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