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Anders

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Reply with quote  #226 

Hey, thank you so much for your help. It makes sense!

Its from this recording: http://www.tedgreene.com/memorybook/memorybook.htm
If you PM me your e-mail, I could send you a mp3 file along with a preview of my transcription, and I can point out where you can find these examples.

All the best

 

tedandbarbaraare1

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Posts: 48
Reply with quote  #227 
Due to a dearth of activity in this section for a while I thought it'd be fun to format it like Jeopardy for once.  

Alex:  Okay, Contestant TB1, please choose your first category. 

Alex, I'll take Ted pages from the December 2015 Newsletter for $200.  

Alex:  The progressions on this page are: 
row 1:   Em/9 , CM7 , Am9, B
 
row 2:   Em, C, Am6,  Bsus, B
 
row 3:  Em/9, Cadd2, Am9,  B7/11, B7
 
row 4:  Em, F# half-dim, Em, Am6, Em, Am6, Bsus, B7, E/Em (the last chord optionally played with the open circles as X's following a dot) 
 

TB1: What is this month's Ted page entitled Harmonic Minor Progressions for Taping.

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #228 
I have a question for you theory experts.
I'm writing up one of Ted's arrangements for next month, and there is a progression he uses that I'm unsure about.

The basic progression is two measures of E7 then to A.
In the song Ted embellishes it one way the for the first verse, then differently for the second verse. It's the second one that doesn't make sense to me.  It sounds great, but why?
Great voice-leading!

The first time is E7 - D/9 - Go7 - E7 then to A6 in the next measure (not shown)
The second time is E7 - D/9 (?) - Gm6 or C9 (?) - E7 then to A in the next measure (not shown).
I'm not sure about the D/9 and Gm6/C9.

Your thoughts?

Attached Images
jpeg E7_Progression_1.jpg (54.09 KB, 22 views)
jpeg E7_Progression_2.jpg (50.51 KB, 21 views)


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James

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Posts: 275
Reply with quote  #229 
The staff notation of the third chord in the second group should have a G natural, not a G# from the key signature.

Like you have observed, this is very much about voice leading.  We have a pedal point E soprano throughout.  In the first version, the three lower voices climb back up by half steps.  In the second version, it's almost the same notes, just different inversions.

So the first set is E7  D/9  Edim7  E7.

I call it Edim7, not Gdim7, because it is a common tone diminished seventh chord.  It has the root note E in common with its target.  A common tone diminished seventh chord is considered apparent because although it looks like a dim7 chord vertically, it doesn't function as a vii of it's target, the way more common diminished seventh chords do.  It is a result of chromatic voice leading driving into its target E7, but because it contains the E note of its target, it's a common tone diminished seventh.

Now the second set of chords is E7  D/9  Em7b5  E7, in my opinion.

The D/9 is now in second inversion instead of first.  The third chord has the same notes as the Edim7 that we had previously except for a D instead of a Db.  So now there are two common tones with the target E7: E and D.  This is a common tone half diminished seventh.  It works just the same as the Edim7 chord in that its vertical structure is apparent rather than functional.  Again it is the result of chromatic voice leading.

Generally speaking, we name chords for their function.  But here have chords that result from chromatic voice leading.  The names here only represent their apparent vertical structure, not their function.  It's the best that can be done if we're forced to name the chord.  But in this case, it might be better NOT to name the chord and to just say they are a result of chromatic voice leading.
goldglob

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Posts: 61
Reply with quote  #230 
Even though the D/9's are indeed D/9's I think of them as Bm7 or E11 based when elaborating an E7 in this sort of way.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #231 
Thank you James and David, I agree with you analysis and have added them on the arrangement sheet.
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kontiki

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Posts: 250
Reply with quote  #232 
I agree with seeing the 2nd chord as a Bm11. It fits in better with Ted's usual procedure of using the co-minor to expand a dominant harmony. He uses it alot.

As for the the third chord, i agree with what's been said, but it also can be seen (or heard) as a kind of augmented sixth chord. the Bb would be considered an A# and the chord would be in inversion with the augmented sixth in the bass ( what is sometimes called a diminished third). what makes this one special is that it has a 9th. So in jazz parlance it would be a C9/Bb converging into the V (a tritone sub of V of V).

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TLerch

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Posts: 237
Reply with quote  #233 
I'm going to be a spoil sport and say that this passage is basically a variation on a blues bass movement that often goes I ii (or bVII/3) bii07 I/3 or similar movements starting on the IV7 chord or the V7 as in this case as well. ) I agree with James about the common tone diminished that is often found in blues and gospel I also agree that the Emin7b5 is functioning in the same way as the Eo7. I don't see the second chord as Bmin7 but rather a D(7) in inversion as was originally suggested, (in this application its is often dominant. the other common sound here is F#min7 which the chord could also be seen as (F#min7 #5)  try playing an open E7 F#min7 Gdim7 E7/G# this is the basis of the sound in Teds passages. I don't know the tune but I would venture a guess that its a tune that has a blues element.
any way that my two cents.  Nobody is wrong of course there are so many ways to interpret this stuff.
Tim
James

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Posts: 275
Reply with quote  #234 
Here's another passage.  It's from They Can't Take That Away.  Ted has already provided the chord names and naturally we take his names as authoritative.  But I have to admit that I would likely have named the chords a little differently.  Would Ted say that my alternate names are fine, too?  Maybe.  Don't know.

Ted:      D#7sus  G#m  E#m7b5  A#m7/11  D#7b9                               G#m
James:  D#7sus  G#m  G#m6     C#/9         D#7b9 (or maybe Fxdim7)  G#m

Ted's naming reflects cycle of fourths thinking and supports people who in the previous Name That Chord preferred iim7/11 (with no root) to IV/9.

I just hear the third chord here as Im6 rather than as VIm7b5.  And I don't have a problem with IVadd9 going to V as easily as iim7/11 no root.

Later in this arrangement, Ted does give the third chord the name G#m6, but it resolves a little differently in that later context.

So, as has been said, slightly different chord naming can be reasonable.  I think Ted was mostly about getting the music happening and not getting too hung up on variant names.


Attached Images
png can_t_take_that.png (275.02 KB, 10 views)

kontiki

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Reply with quote  #235 
There are more examples of add9 being named m11 in the session of the stars handouts. especially progression 8. It's also in many of his arrangements. I just think it reflects the importance of the co-minor concept in his thinking and playing process. He's always talking about it in the lessons and seminars. when he's thinking (overtone) dominant he's thinking and using the co-minor to expand and elaborate it through approach chords or part of an extended dominant/co-minor chord stream.
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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #236 
Here's an excerpt from a lesson by Ted that will get posted in November or December.
Ted wrote on this page: "Key of A"

Name the chords.
Extra credit for naming the V-System number of the one in row 3, chord #6.

Attached Images
jpeg Application_of_Contemporary_Harmonized_Scales,_1992-07-01,_Excerpt.jpg (131.58 KB, 23 views)


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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #237 
No takers on this one?

These are from a lesson on contemporary harmonized scales, so think scale-wise movement. E bass pedal over the first 7 chords.

I see the first chord as D/E, or E11.

Or you could think of all these as triads with their 9ths added.
Thus:  D/9/E (Dadd9/E), E/9 (Eadd9), F#m9/E, etc.

Of course there's a lot of ways to look at these....

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