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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #1 
Ted wrote up a page entitled, "Descending Chromatic Bass Progressions, from ii7/5" dated 1-10-1987, which contains 4 different examples, each in a different key.  He didn't include chord names, so I thought I'd post them here for input from you all.

Let's look at one at a time. Here's example #1.
Please let us know how you would label these chords.  Thanks.
--Paul

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jpeg 1987-01-10,_Part_1.jpg (195.95 KB, 199 views)


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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi Paul,
I'd love to look at it and give my $.02 but alas it does not appear. could you try again to attach the example.
Thanks
Tim

PaulV

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Reply with quote  #3 
...Sorry.....somehow the file got deleted.  I re-attached it to the original post.
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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #4 
Here's what I have come up with on first brush, I reserve the right to change my mind as the discussion unfolds : )

Bmin7/f#         E13b9/f        A/e                A7/e         
D#min7b5       Dmin6         A/c#               B7b9/c   
Bmin11           Bmin7/a       E7#9#5/g#     E9#5/g# 
A(add9)/c#        Bmin7/d       E7#9              E9

This is a beautiful progression, lets make sure we all get it under our fingers as well as talking about the names!
Leaving out the bass notes would look better but wouldn't be as clear.
Seems like  it could be 4 bars of one beat each or 8 bars of two beats each.
 Anyone else have a different take?
Thanks Paul

PaulV

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Reply with quote  #5 
Tim,
I totally agree with your take on these chords. You're right on the money!
One alternate possibility that I lean towards is F7/C for the eighth diagram.
I know...flat-5 sub, either way works, but I tend not to assume a b9 in the base here.
Also, one could contend the Bm7/D as a D6, but I favor the ii-V movement rather than a IV-V.

One thing I've done with this little piece is to play it breaking up the melody (top line) from the bottom parts, and even add a few extra moving melody lines.  I prefer it as a 8 measure phrase to give it more breathing space.
This is a sweet little thing that could be used as an intro or interlude for something in A.  If you're playing this by itself be sure to resolve to some kind of A major color.

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #6 
OK....let's move on to Ted's next example.
Here is #2, this time in the key of Ab.
Please give us your chord names...

--Paul


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jpeg 1987-01-10,_Part_2.jpg (195.48 KB, 92 views)


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #7 
sorry, i'm on the first one still, I didn't have time to respond. I also agree with what Tim says except for the eighth diagram which i would just consider a Cdim  or Adim/C but i guess the F7/C looks good too.

for the second diagram it's a little tricky, we see this chord all the time but it's always hard to name. Tim's label is good, but it can also be considered a dim triad with a maj7. in this case a D dim maj7 with the F in the bass. I guess functionally it would be more convenient to consider it a type of E,  I guess you guys who studied with Ted would probably have discussed this chord and what he considered it to be as well as its function so I defer to you on this. Did he ever talk about or use the term diminished triad with a maj 7?

I also favor a ii V movement at the end:. Bm/D E7#9

anyway, that's my two cents, hope it doesn't open up a can of worms..


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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #8 
for the second one: this is such a common progression to the ear, but such a difficult one to name. But here's my take on it:

Dbadd9/F  Eb13b9/E*     AbMaj7/Eb   Ab9/Eb

Dm7b5     Dbm6           Ab/C        Bdim

Bbm11     Eb13sus        Dbadd9/F    Eb13/G**

Cm7       Fm7            Eb9sus      Eb13


*again, I think the 13b9 with the b9 in the bass could be considered a type of diminished (with a maj7), but to be coherent and for clarity of function, maybe the former is better.

** I play this chord often thinking of it as a m7b5 with a sus instead of a third.In this case it would be a Gm7b5(sus). But maybe again it's just easier to consider it a Eb9.

as for the Dbadd9, one could also consider them Bbm11 (without the Bb)

sorry for any mistakes


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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #9 
I get much the same a Kontiki, but with a few minor adjustments that seem to clarify function. I'd call the first chord Bbmin11 and coincidentally I'd also think of the second to the last chord as Bbmin11.  I agree that the 13b9 chords could be just as well thought of a Dim types and that the Db(add9) could be seen as Bbmin11, ( i would lean that way) regarding Gm7b5 sus4, I'd stick with the function of the chord which would be Eb13 (unless of course the next chord in the sequence was some kind of C7). This is a really beautiful progression and it can be illuminating to compare it to the previous example.

Thanks Paul for putting this fun challenge up.
Tim
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #10 
I think it's self-evident in the title Ted gave this page that the first chord of each example is a ii7 with 5 in the bass. So, I'd agree with Tim that the first chord is Bbm11. 

The second chord, functioning as a V7 would probably be best named as Eb13(b9), but as a flat-5 sub you could also call it an A7(#9). 

The eighth chord could also be an E7 rather than a Bdim.  As a B diminished it is missing it's flatted 5th degree, so it's more of an implied diminished 7th or a Bm6 (no 5th).  I like the E7 better, but I think Ted would call it an Abdim.  That's I dim.  Yes, that's it.

The twelfth chord to me is definitely a Eb9, as the V7, resolving to a iii-vi-ii-V instead of directly to the I chord.

I agree that the second to last chord is a Bbm11/Eb.

Okay.  Great insights.  Thanks!
--Paul


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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #11 
Okay, here is example #3.
Note:  the last three chords are marked as "or" -- meaning, to replace the three chord before them.
Also, please let us know how you would finger the 3rd and 4th chords with the ties.

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jpeg 1987-01-10,_Part_3.jpg (186.88 KB, 73 views)


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TLerch

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Reply with quote  #12 
Paul, in example #2 the twelfth chord is E13 spelled 3 13 b7 9. Otherwise I agree with all of your assessments. I like the E7 as well since the Bdim is only suggested by whats there,although I can really hear it as 1 dim as you suggest. I was playing Tenderly today and there is a point in the song where it does a very similar thing, #4 min7b5 n and the down chromatically to 1.
I keep thinking of this, "how would i write this as symbols that would get closest to the actual voicings if someone just saw the symbols and played from them". I know thats not possible but it' is where I try to go with it.
Now I'll look at #3
this is fun!
Tim

TLerch

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Reply with quote  #13 
ok how about a little change of pace ; I'll do this one in #s

ii/5   V7/b9   I/5   I7/5   #ivb5   iv maj7   I/3   II7/b9   ii11 ii/5   V9   V9/b7   I/3   or   V7  V7 of A(new key)     I


as far as the fingering for the ties on the I to I7 chords play the first chord  2 1 3 4 low to high them use the 1st finger to slant and get to high root in the second chord while simultaneously moving the 7th down to b7  thereby sustaining the 5th and the 3rd
ok time for a rest
 Tim
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #14 
Tim,
Yeah, my goof on the Eb3 in example #2 - yes.
For Example #3, I agree with the fingering of chords 3 to 4.  The George Van Eps 5th finger technique.  On my nylon-string gtr it's pretty tough to get that clean.  Definitely a technique that works best on electric.

I only differ with you on the eighth chord.  I see/hear that as a i dim (Fdim).  Just like in the turnaround of the tune "Moonglow":   I - i dim - ii - i dim then to I.  (see Ted's arrangement of this in October).
The V of A for the alternate ending would actually be a V7(b5)...to be precise.

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kontiki

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Reply with quote  #15 
I agree with Tim for most of the analasis except:

the 3rd chord: for me it's a iii/3     but that's just a minor detail  (pun not intended)

the 8th chord looks and functions like a I diminished, so it would be Idim/3

the 12th chord is more a V7/b7  than a V9/b7

and as far as modulating goes, it seems to me that we get a half cadence (a phrygian cadence at that) in D minor and not A major. The second to last chord is a "augmented 6th" chord (a french augmented 6th to be exact with the b5) with the aumented sixth Bb & G# resolving outwards into an ocatve  A & A. This is a very typical 19th century cadence.  The D minor would make more sense also, as we know it's the relative minor. Try playin the progression with a d minor at the end  and you'll hear how satisfactorily it resolves to D minor.


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