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TLerch

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Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #61 
Good one Paul,
it certainly defies any easy answer as far as function is concerned. I think as a stand alone chord it could be called E6/9#5 or as Ted may have written it E6/9+  Again as a stand alone chord it could be seen as bIII of C# Melodic or Harmonic Minor. But in the context of this tune its bII which would usually be inclined to move to I but rather its moving to v.  My brain is still going to have to chew on this (or someone else will be brilliant and solve the mystery.) Here is a stab that may stimulate some good thinking. it occurrs to to me that the sound of this particular moment (as I here it) in the music could be conceived of as i dim7 leading to v. ( Ebdim7  Bbmin7) could that voicing somehow be construed as Ebdim7 ext?   Or could it be thought of as some type of Bb7 chord as in II7 ii7 etc. certainly it appears that the chromatic voice leading is an important element as i'm sure the classicists among us will point out.  like i said Good One Paul!!!!

all the best
 Tim
goldglob

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Posts: 62
Reply with quote  #62 
Interesting. It's got the sound of that descending thing like Cm7 Bdim7 Bbm7, but no, the C melody doesn't work with that.
Or the sound of E9+ going to Eb11; that's pretty common, Bill Evans slips that in a lot, but no, the C# doesn't fit that.
It does comply with C# Melodic minor=C7ALT but hang on, that seems strange going to Bbm7 (or Eb11).
But it sounds great, so I would just call it E6/9 (#5) and put it down to voice leading. I've tried to rationalize it as familiar but can't.
James

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Posts: 279
Reply with quote  #63 
Hi Paul,

Are you sure about the names of the surrounding chords?

This is a difficult progression to analyze but I might go with:

Ebmaj7   Cm7/11(no root)  F11(or F7sus)  Bbm9b5+  Eb11(or Eb7sus)  Bbm7  Eb9

This is how I hear it.  It's quite dissonant.  And Ted often analyzed things differently than how I would.

Notice I analyzed the second, third, and fifth chords differently than you did.

PaulV

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Reply with quote  #64 
Hey James,
Yeah, I think you nailed it.  I agree with your analysis....I just needed to shift the cycle-five back one chord and think of different roots.

I generally don't like chords with two kinds of 5 in them:  b5 and #5 or natural....but in this case it works.
I'll also give that chord the name that goldglob gave it:  E6/9+.  Both work.

Ted often left his arrangements and lesson pages without chord names, or without the chord quality, leaving it up to the student to add.
I'm sure Ted would have enjoyed our discussions about his chords and progressions.

James, I believe you and Ted analyze things alike more than you think.  [smile]

As it stands now, this 1990 arrangement of Misty will go up for the June Newsletter.....so you'll all just have to wait a bit.   [comp]

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PaulV

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Reply with quote  #65 
What would you call this chord?
This is from Ted's comping page for "Come Rain or Come Shine" (hopefully to be posted next month).

Again, this is a case where we have both a b5 and #5 (or a b9 and a #9)....I don't like....too messy....but if that's what it is....

Maybe m7b5b13  ?

BTW, according to Ted's sheet, he gave it the root name of D, so that's where we base it.

Attached Images
jpeg Dm7b5_with_Bb.jpg (24.50 KB, 3 views)


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goldglob

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Posts: 62
Reply with quote  #66 
Given D root, I think of that as Dm7b5(+), but nothing wrong with Dm7b5b13.
James

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Posts: 279
Reply with quote  #67 
Personally I favor sharp 5, which means the chord would be: Dm7b5+ or DΓΈ7+, both notations that Ted used, the latter being "half-diminished" and equivalent to "minor seven flat five."  However, Ted did sometimes write b6 or b13, so that's also reasonable.

What is the context?  If the soprano moves up or stays on the same note, I'd put a "+" in the chord name.  If the soprano moves down, I might put "b6" or "b13,"  maybe the former since there's no 9 in the chord.

I don't think you can go wrong with just Dm7b5+, which is what you guys already said.
barbaralovedcats

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Posts: 172
Reply with quote  #68 
I'd like to add that I believe the m7b5 chord, with these particular extra chord tones resides on the 2nd degree of the key of C natural minor (same notes as key of Eb major), as well as on the 6th degree of the ascending version of F melodic minor, and on the 7th degree of the ascending version of Eb melodic minor, but NOT the 2nd degree of the C harmonic minor scale.

I would like to kindly ask Maestro David Bishop, if he has the time, to be kind enough to please affirm or dis-affirm something I've sort of blindly held onto for a long time for some reason or another and would like to know if it's time to deep six this notion e.g. Are tensions in Minor-land, at least in Occidental music, frequently seen / heard coming from the natural minor. 

BLC

p.s.   I would like to ditto Sir James' question, "What is the context?"

p.p.s  There is a beautiful section in Ted's Single Note Soloing, Vol 2, where he discusses related information, in a section of that book entitled MINOR 7b5 SCALES.   At page 72 the singularly amazing, regrettably late and indisputably great TG said "1 b3 b5 b7 are the regular chord tones.  The most common other chord tones to be added to the m7b5 chord are the 9th (occasionally the b9th), the 11th, and the b13th (#5th) and more rarely the 13th. I didn't check Ted's "Chemistry" book, but there are plenty of examples of b5 and b13 notations on pages 73 to 75.  

p.p.p.s.  I apologize for the way too windy post.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #69 
Okay, here is the context in which the Dm7b5+ resides.  Not sure this really helps the issue much.  I've notated the #5 as Bb rather than A#, since we already have an Ab in the chord. Calling it a Bb may not be technically correct, but it makes reading it a bit easier, IMO.

Attached Images
jpeg Come_Rain_or_Come_Shine,_excerpt.jpg (54.62 KB, 10 views)


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goldglob

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Posts: 62
Reply with quote  #70 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulVachon
Okay, here is the context in which the Dm7b5+ resides.  Not sure this really helps the issue much.  I've notated the #5 as Bb rather than A#, since we already have an Ab in the chord. Calling it a Bb may not be technically correct, but it makes reading it a bit easier, IMO.


You meant it to be Bb not B natural I think.
And yes, the context here is not the usual ii V to minor. These two bars in the original sheet music are just G7 with a Gm6 last beat underpinning the E note leading to tonic Dm. The Dm7b5+ is just an elaboration of G7. I see the two bars as IV7 in Dm. I can also hear them as II7 in F, with the last Gm6 being a quick pointer to tonic Dm. The treatment of these two bars by various artists over the years is interesting...some treat it as a sort of blues tonic in itself, others treat it as I have outlined above but with all sorts of elaboration..
Bill Evans for instance plays |G11 G13#11| B13#9 Bb13 (#11)| then straight to tonic Dm.
I'll be interested to see how Ted dealt with certain other parts of this piece, which are a lot harder than these two bars to rationalize into a sort of familiar framework.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #71 
Ah yes, my error.  Sorry.  Here is the excerpt as it should be:

Attached Images
jpeg Come_Rain_or_Come_Shine,_excerpt.jpg (54.77 KB, 8 views)


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barbaralovedcats

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Posts: 172
Reply with quote  #72 
Okay People,   

What about a colorful co-minor of a hot rod D minor for the G7, or even a D7  b5 #9 #5? (alterations listed from low pitch to high pitch) 

That "D" chord sounds like Jump Back Blues deja vu to me e.g. G7 Dalt G7 etc  

BLC
barbaralovedcats

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Posts: 172
Reply with quote  #73 
As I welcome myself back, I realize I j had to do some more thinking about this, especially after the buzzer beating shot that meant my Bulls are now 2 to 2.    

I looked at many of Ted's great blues pieces, including Jump Back Blues 4-19-85 and the E7#9#5 in that piece is very close, only up a whole step, to the D7 b5 #9 #5 i mentioned.   To transform that into an E7 b5 #9 #5 up a whole step from the D7 b5 #9 #5 in Come Rain or Come Shine i added the E bass note and the Bb note on the A string at fret 11, and VOILA! an E7 b5 #9 #5.  Lower that spicy gropu of notes down to frets and guess what you get?   Hint- D7 b5 #9 #5l    

Also, in another one of Ted's compositions, Approach Chord Blues, , 8-25-85, the G7#9+ (the very first chord) is another example where Ted is using what most of us would consider to be the b3 (Bb) of a G minor sort of chord chord, but he is really using it (the Bb) as the #9 of a G dominant type chord with the same root as what many would think was a minor chord (G minor) if it weren't for the B natural in the bass of that one. i realize what i just said might be a bit confusing even when re-read several times. I apologize, but i believe it can make sense if you want it to.     

Drum roll please........  My conclusion -- the chord could be, maybe not with the same certainly as causation in the NFL's Deflate-gate, but certainly it could be a D7 b5 #9 #5 resolving very nicely back to G dominant.    

I am no leaving the building on this particular chord name.    whatever it is, it sounds really wonderful. 


BLC
James

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Posts: 279
Reply with quote  #74 
I think what both Goldglob and BLC are saying makes a lot of sense.  It certainly can be heard as D7#9b5+ even though the chord then has no third.

I still think Dm7b5+ is the simplest name and it really can be heard as Dm7b5 with an added tone.

So if it were me, I'd write those two names: Dm7b5+ and D7#9b5+.

As we all know from substitution theory, the co-minor can always be transformed into a dominant.  Here the chord is sitting right in between being a co-minor and a V of the G dominant that follows.
PaulV

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Reply with quote  #75 
Hi James,
Yes, I also decided to give both names, and that's the way it'll appear on the lesson write-up.  
I prefer the Dm7b5+ because of the missing major 3rd interval in the dominant version, although quite valid itself, as Ted would write: D7#9b5+no3

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