PLEASE REGISTER TO POST. Also, be sure to visit the main website www.tedgreene.com

**************************************************************************************
Buy NOW on Amazon
My Life with The Chord Chemist
A Memoir of Ted Greene, Apotheosis of Solo Guitar
Available at amazon.com

*Check it out!!!

YOUR SUPPORT MAKES A DIFFERENCE
Your contributions keep the site healthy and growing


More information HERE

Official Ted Greene Archives Blog

Ted Greene Archives on YouTube

Join Ted on FACEBOOK

NEW! Follow on TWITTER

..:: The Ted Greene Forums ::..
Register Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 6      1   2   3   4   Next   »
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,569
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi guys,
Can you have a look at this 8-bar phrase from one of Ted's work sheets and see if you can give me a name for the chord with the question mark? 
The passage is in the key of A, and the general progression is:  ii7 - V7 - I - VI7, so I would expect that this unknown chord to be some kind of F#7 chord....but is doesn't seem to fit.  (Maybe the spelling of the chord tones in the notation will need to be modified after a name is given.)
I'd love to see what you think.
Thanks!

Attached Images
jpeg ii7_-_V7_-_I_with_Connecting_Chords.jpg (328.18 KB, 84 views)


__________________
--Paul

TsuyoshiIchikawa

Registered:
Posts: 2
Reply with quote  #2 
I think this chord is Cdim7(bⅢdim7) or F7#11(bⅥ7)

Ted plays bⅢdim7,bⅥ7 instead of Ⅵ7.

Tsuyoshi Ichikawa
http://www.solo-guit.com/english.html
barbarafranklin

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 940
Reply with quote  #3 
I'm not very good at naming "jazz"chords but, I think it could be F7/#11(no3rd)?
because the following chord is ii7  (so from 2nd half of the bar: I VI7 ii7 V7 I)
even tho it is a b7 because of the key if we spell the chord from the root FCEbB - that's what I come up with.  (seems like some kind of passing chord too) 
I could be all wrong.  Dr. Bishop???

__________________
Barbara Franklin
omobob

Registered:
Posts: 112
Reply with quote  #4 
it "looks" like the lower 3 voices moving together in contrary motion relative to the highest voice... could this be an example of horizontal motion caught in a vertical frame? or is that just a fancy way of avoiding the question?
barbarafranklin

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 940
Reply with quote  #5 
Shortly after I replied, my computer went down.  When I looked at the page printed out I noticed the Eb  - therefore I changed my response accordingly.
However, I played it on the piano - that chord does not sound good to me!
Paul, where did you get this from?

__________________
Barbara Franklin
bishopdm

Registered:
Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #6 
Yeesh...that's a good one.  If you need a label, I'm inclined to agree with Barbara on this one.  But I'm hearing a linear chord more than anything (in agreement with omobob, it works because the voice leading is smooth).  In this regard, note the descending minor thirds in the lower two voices starting all the way back on the F#7b9.  (By the way, Leon, are you missing a D natural on the Dm6 chord?)  All the other chords sound correct when you play their missing implied roots, but I can't make this one sound right to my ears when I play F as the root.  Harmonically, an F dominant seventh makes sense as the substitute dominant to the V (bypassing the ii7).  But that F root doesn't do it for me.  Darn that Ted!

Any other ideas?  Did Ted ever consider a sonority to be "nameless" and just a result of moving voices?

__________________
David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,569
Reply with quote  #7 
This phrase is taken from one of Ted's pages on V-1 chords, this one being named, "V-1 Chord Voicings:  ii-V7-I with Connecting Chords" dated 1986-01-26.
This is not from a tune, but a part of a series of studies or "etudes" Ted devised for learning V-1 chords.
Thanks for catching the missing natural sign on the Dm6 chord, Dr. Bishop! (I fixed it on the attachment in the first post.)

__________________
--Paul
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,569
Reply with quote  #8 
So what's the verdict?  What is the best choice name for this chord?:
  • Cdim (with 11th and maj7)
  • Cm11(maj7)
  • F7(#11) no 3rd
I tend towards the Cm11(maj7) because of the half-step principle, and because it has a 3rd and a 7th...although the 11th adds a bit of a kick to it.  The F7(#11)no 3rd almost works, but how is that a resolution to the Bm11 that follows?
More feedback...please.
Thanks!

__________________
--Paul
bishopdm

Registered:
Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #9 
The simplest answer is most often the best, Paul.  F7#11(no 3rd) gets my vote.  The other two possibilities just don't make sense to me without a lot of unnecessary justification.  And it resolves quite nicely to the V7 chord, bypassing the ii; happens all the time.  My humble opinion, of course.
__________________
David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
bishopdm

Registered:
Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #10 
This has descended into a pissing match, so I'm bowing out.  And Paul is right, it's just four notes.  But being the academic that I am, I have to lay out my case.  By the way, I found two instances in Chord Chemistry last night that clearly support Barbara's label of the chord (which I still believe is most correct), but none that support the other two.  Seems pretty clear to me what Ted would have thought.

A problem with modern harmony, as I have seen it for some time, is that one can justify any chord name for a given group of notes because, beyond a simple seventh chord, any other note in the chromatic is available to be added.  This means any twelve note chord can be given a name, no matter how ridiculous.

My problem with the tritone substitution is that this particular substitution almost exclusively occurs between two dominant-type harmonies whose roots are separated by a tritone.  These two chords share two notes:  the third and seventh of one chords becomes the seventh and third of the other.  This common-tone connection does not take place when the two chords are of different types (i.e., dominant and minor); therefore, the basis for the substitution is tenuous at best.  I am not aware of any examples in the literature that illustrate such a substitution but would be happy to learn of any.  I know that Joe Pass, in his book, states that any chord can be substituted by any chord whose roots are separated by a tritone, but then he doesn't give any examples to support this.  The above plus the fact that 50% of the chord in question needs to be explained to make this particular substitution work causes me to continue looking for a simpler explanation.

There's one big problem with the diminished seventh possibility.  THE defining note in a diminished seventh chord (or diminished triad) is the fifth.  Without this, it simply isn't diminished.  And again, 50% of the chord has to be justified.

Barbara had it right from the beginning:  F7#11.  It's the simplest explanation and it functions correctly.  75% of the chord is there, and the #11 replaces the third, just as the sus4 replaces the third.  The only difference is that quite often with a #11, the third MAY be included, whereas with a sus4, the third is rarely...very rarely...included.

I'm reminded of the advice the great literary detective Nero Wolfe gives to his sidekick Archie Goodwin:  when you get into a situation where you are not sure how to proceed, you are to act in the light of experience as guided by intelligence.

Good day, all.

__________________
David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,569
Reply with quote  #11 
My only thought about the chord in question is that it sounds like it is moving to the Bm11 chord, such as a cycle-5 movement. 
A chord moving to it's own tritone sub usually doesn't really have the sound of progression through the cycle of 5ths, for example going from C7 to F#7 -- it's just a replacement that harmonically doesn't progress. 
However, in this case of the F7(#11) to Bm11, the two chords are of different qualities (dominant moving to a minor7), so there is the movement of the Eb to D (b7 to b3), but no movement of the 3 to b7, since there is no 3rd in the dominant). 
Also, the root of the F7 moves to the 11 of the Bm11. So that seems to provide enough movement to sound like progression. It's a very subtle thing, but Ted was very clever here.
So, I guess the F7(#11) wins my vote (although I may add the Cm11(maj7) as a possible optional name.)  Hmmm....
Thanks for all your thoughts!

__________________
--Paul
TLerch

Registered:
Posts: 239
Reply with quote  #12 
I just love this kind of post and I'm sorry the little bit of passion has soured it a bit for some, but, passion is really good! So thank you everyone for spending some time on this. First of all I hope that everyone who can, actually plays this example more than a few times and really listens and enjoys it. It is an absolutely beautiful and fascinating bit of voice leading, physically a bit difficult but worth every muscle and tendon stretching minute.  One possibility that hasn't been suggested explicitly is B7b9#11. This isn't neccessarily the name I'd give it but if you look at Teds chord box the 7th fret is indicated and I believe he started using the number on the left to indicate the root (at least sometimes later on).  So this gives credence to the Cdim7 function that Tsuyoshi Ichikawa wrote of earlier. The sound of 16 in 1st inversion moving to biii dim moving to ii etc is well documented in popular song, Embraceable You, How long has this been going on etc. When I hear 3 of the 4 voices of a 1 chord moving down a half step I think(hear) i dim (masquerading as biii dim) moving to ii. We've all heard iii - biii dim - ii -V and I think we've all heard iii -biii - ii- V,   happens all the time. All of the above chord names from previous post would get the job done just fine.  Sometimes there are multiple names, that's just the way it goes in jazz. What helps me decide is, common function and past experience with tunes that have similar movements. So my vote is for the Cdim7 or B7b9#11. If you wanted to get the essence of this movement in a basic chord chart like many of us read on gigs and sessions I think B7b9#11 would be the name that would suggest the voice leading that Ted has on the page. F7#11 (no 3rd) would be good too, as would Cmin11/maj7, So there you have it, a most wonderful circular parabox! Everybody is correct so now we have the wonderful opportunity to appreciate everyone elses perspective and stretch our ears, minds and hearts as well as our tendons and muscles.
Thanks for caring about just 4 notes,
Tim
James

Registered:
Posts: 278
Reply with quote  #13 
I hear it as approached as an F7#11 and departed as B(7)b5b9. The departure answers your question about resolution, Paul. It's a dominant chord (B7) on II turning into a minor ii (Bm7) before going on to V. The overall progression is II V I VI repeated 3 and 3/4 times. But it's like he missed F#7 this time and slid down to the bVI (F7) instead of the VI (F#7). And then slides out of it. It's very slidy, chromaticy and the stretches hurt my hand. Also the second chord in the progression, which you've labelled E7#5b9, can also be heard as Fm6, anticipating the chord in question on an F root. I hear the opening chords as D/9 Fm6 A/9 and then as the A tonality settles in I hear them in retrospect as you do, Bm11 E7#5b9. But then I often heard things quite differently than the way Ted did. So there you go.
PaulV

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,569
Reply with quote  #14 
This exercise was titled by Ted as "ii - V7 - I with Connecting Chords" and this one in particular was marked by him as "key of A" so that's how the chords were so named.
Thanks for your insights as to alternate names.

__________________
--Paul
bishopdm

Registered:
Posts: 244
Reply with quote  #15 
Hi Charles.  I've been busy working on a research grant all week, so haven't had time to spend doing anything else.  Yes, I know Dr. Mayersohn and Dr. Bootman (who is Dean of the College of Pharmacy, where I am located).  The other names don't ring a bell.

Anyway, in my copy of Chord Chemistry (6th edition, I believe), look at the section on dominant 7th suspended chords (my page 43), row four, third from the right (E7sus).  It's spelled exactly like the chord in question, except for the note on the high E string (in this case, the sus 4, or natural 4).  Move that note up one half step (making it a #11), and you have the chord Paul was asking about.  So from highest string to lowest, you would have the #11, root, seventh, and fifth.

The other example is in the section on augmented 11th chords (my page 52, fourth from the left).  This one is not as easy to see and involves one instance of octave displacement.  The #11, root, and fifth (strings one, two, and three, respectively) are still there in the same octave as the earlier voicing, but the seventh appears an octave lower (on the fifth string).  This voicing also includes the ninth (on the fourth string) and the third (on the sixth string).

__________________
David Bishop
Tucson, AZ
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

YOUR SUPPORT MAKES A DIFFERENCE :: DONATE