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klasaine

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Reply with quote  #31 
The Ab and B natural are all about the V7 chord (G7alt. to a CM or cm). It's the pull to and from C. Your right though, we're pretty OT at this point.
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ken lasaine
kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #32 
Well, since there's nobody on-topic, a little more off-topic can't hurt.

Ken, I was going to let it lie, since it seemed you proved my point, but I think you misunderstood my point:

In a D dorian context, like So what, or Impressions, surely as a default choice for accompaniment behind a soloist, you wouldn't choose G7 altered movement?! I think just about everybody would expect D dorian (d e f g a b c d ) as material for movement for accompaniment (at least as a default choice). If you play G altered your getting Ab Bb C# (Db)  D# ! that's pretty out. I don't think i'd be too happy if i were the soloist and somebody started playing that behind me without any warning while i was trying to develop dorian ideas...    

G7(9 11 13) is fine but not G7 altered.

By the way, I appreciate you making the effort to shed light on this system which i find, as you said, "murky".

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klasaine

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Reply with quote  #33 
I may be completely misunderstanding your post but I think - as we're now talking in Dm7 - that the 'pull' would be to and from an A7alt. utilizing the Bb, C and C# of the Dm bebop scale.
Anyway, that's how I interpret it - alt. V7 going to i (or I) ... and I may be totally wrong about all that, lol!?

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ken lasaine
kontiki

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Reply with quote  #34 
Well, there's really no ultimate "right" or "wrong", just convention and/or personal taste. Again, I appreciate your responses.

I'm talking more about "D dorian" than just "Dm7". Of course there's a Dm7 diatonic to "D dorian", but just by itself it's a little ambiguous, hence the number of scale choices one could use depending on the context. Now, if i want D dorian, real D dorian, I probably will try to stay with the notes "d e f g a b c d"  as much as possible. The A7 altered, will imply more of a D natural minor, or D harmonic minor, but not D dorian. Of course one could still play A7alt within a dorian context and make it sound good, but it could clash with the soloist or melody, and it will ultimately be going out of D dorian for however short or long a time you play it.

If I may suggest a "movement":
going up or down alternating inversions (systematic or not) of i and ii (Dm7 and Em7), is a very easy and straightforward way of getting the classic dorian sound. for example using V.2 (drop 2):

Dm7  Em7  Dm7/F  Em7/G  Dm7/A  Em7/B  Dm9/C  Dm7

one could just go up and down the fretboard, getting alot of movement, using sysyematic inversions (or not) with this easy formula and get (and stay within ) the dorian tonality.

one could also do the "borrowing-thing" from the next or previous chord if one wants a slightly different set of voicings etc.

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klasaine

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Reply with quote  #35 
I think we're talking about two different things here - ?

In this case (modally) when I say Dm7 I'm definitely talking Dorian.
Thinking and playing A7alt/doms as a soloist and chordally behind a soloist is absolutely what post 1940's beboppers did/do. Especially from '58 onward (post Kind of Blue). Implying the tension and resolution - even modally. And that is what I personally surmise from the Barry Harris thing - the inside/outside movement sound. I don't like it when Impressions or So What is called and the piano player just lays down a bunch of modal chords in D dorian. Come on, give me something to work with - please throw me an A7+ at least. And when I solo over those tunes I'm constantly snaking around A7, Bbm7, Fm7, Eb7, etc. 

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ken lasaine
kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #36 
We're getting into questions of personal taste. But I'd like to know what Barry Harris' method is for movement that stays "completely" in dorian? and i mean completely, not adding outside tones. It still is appropriate and desirable in music to stay "diatonic" for however long a time. There are always situations where we don't want to jazz up things too much, at least for me. 
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klasaine

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Reply with quote  #37 
Judging by his playing, which I love, I would say 1) no system for keeping solely in one mode, 2) unnecessary to have a system for solely (single) modal playing 3) he's just not about that type of jazz - he's a bopper at heart and is all about the pull/release. Modal jazz isn't his thing.
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ken lasaine
PaulV

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Posts: 1,652
Reply with quote  #38 

I'm preparing Ted's lesson material for the August Newsletter, and found one page that has an interesting comment from Ted.
It's from his "3rd in the Bass Chord Forms - Introductory Page" 1983-09-28.
 
In referring to a Gm7b5 chord he wrote:  "Should be called G dim.7th, but...."
And referring to a G dim.7th chord he wrote, "Should be G dim.6th, but...."

This does make sense.  

I think Ted would have liked to revamp the entire chord-naming conventions. 
For instance, he would have wanted:
    Dominant 7/6 to replace Dominant 13 no9, 
    Major 7/6 instead of Major 13 no9,
    /9 instead of add9
    Minor 7/11 instead of minor 11 no9.
    And of course, to include his famous dominant 17th chord - a dominant 11th chord with a major 3 above the 11th.
etc.

I think he wanted clear definitions for chords that did or did not include the 9th.


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