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kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #1 
Hey James, I'm just reading through the Conversion paper (great work as usual) and I felt challenged by the statement  
Quote:
If you try to drop the tenor or the bass two octaves, no matter which voicing group you are starting from, the result will be an unreachable chord that doesn't belong to any of the fourteen voicing groups.
Of course I had to try and see. 
 
Of course I understand that in most cases this is true, but there are chords where one can drop the tenor two octaves, or raise the alto 2 octaves and still have playable voicings (no open strings). Of course it has to be above the 12th fret, but so do a couple of the voicing groups above 10.
 
Anyway, sorry to be a pain in the neck. 

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kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #2 
James,

It would seem that Ted saw a difference between "fixed soprano", and "same soprano". The former would seem to mean that the same finger would stay on the same string on the same soprano, whereas the latter would require some re-fingering and possibly changing strings. In your "Conversions Listed by Conversion Procedure" sheet, you seemed to have put fixed soprano everywhere, while many of them would need re-fingering. Was this done on purpose?

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James

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Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Kontiki,

Thanks for your questioning and investigation.  I'd rather be wrong and corrected and we figure things out properly than have incorrect info stand.  If I turn out to be right, that's interesting, too.

I checked dropping the tenor 2 octaves and raising the alto 2 octaves from V-1 through V-14 and in no case did one of the fourteen voicing groups result.  If you have an example that proves me wrong, I'd love to see it.  I suspect that you have arrived at a chord that is reachable and four distinct notes, yet it is not a member of any of the fourteen voicing groups.  If so, you have encountered a rarity: a four distinct note chord that does not fit into one of the fourteen voicing groups.  In any case, please post your example(s).

It is true that Ted wrote both "fixed soprano" and "same soprano."  I took these to mean the same thing and just used "fixed soprano" for my conversion listings.  I will investigate your suggestion about re-fingering further and whether he meant something different by these two labels.  I'll post here after I check it out.

Thanks!
James

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Posts: 292
Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Kontiki,

I checked out your hypothesis that "fixed soprano" and "same soprano" mean different things.  But it is not so.  I think Ted used them interchangeably.  In the same way, he used "drop" and "lower" to mean the same thing.

Attached are some examples.  On the top two, Ted used "fixed."  The one on the left requires re-fingering.  The one on the right does not.  For the lower two examples, Ted used the word "same."  The one on the left requires re-fingering.  The one on the right does not.  So as far as I can see, Ted is not making a distinction between "fixed soprano" and "same soprano."

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kontiki

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Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #5 
James,

    I did indeed mean "chords that fell outside of the 14 voicing groups". It was the word "unreachable" that piqued my interest. So i set out to find chords that i could move the tenor up two octaves, or the alto down two octaves. There was never a doubt about what you said about arriving at a chord that wasn't included in the 14 voice groups.

Actually if one wanted to, i imagine one could find quite a few of these chords "outside the 14 voicing groups" using exactly the procedure you specified. The only thing is that quite a few of these chords are playable, especially certain quality types and, of course, at the extreme limit of the neck. But, like i mentioned, many of the higher voicing group inversions are also only playable like this. Some are even more difficult and extreme than the ones "outside" the system.

Here are just two examples:

V.2,   D7,   lowest string set, 12th position,  1st inversion (from low to high: F#, C , D, A): if you bring the alto (D) up an octave you get a V.5  D7, if you bring it up another octave you get a voicing that is playable but outside the voicing system.


V.2   Eadd9, highest string set,  18th position,  1st inversion (from low to high: G#, E , F#, B)    if you bring the tenor (E) down an octave you get a V.5   Eadd9 , if you bring it down another octave you get a voicing that is playable but outside the voicing system.


and a last one that's even easier to play:  V.3  G7sus,  root position, 15th position,  (from low to high: G, C , F, D),  if you bring the soprano (D) up an octave you get a  voicing that is playable but outside the voicing system.

As for  the "Fixed" versus "Same" soprano question, I agree with your conclusion. I imagine he first thought about making them different, but then maybe he realized that it's not dependent so much on the voicing "group" but on the "quality". A conversion between the same voicing groups can demand re-fingering  for certain qualities but not for others. at least that's how i see it.

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James

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Posts: 292
Reply with quote  #6 
Hi Kontiki,

Those are fascinating examples you came up with.  You are absolutely right.  All three of these chords are reachable 4-distinct-note chords that do not fall within any of the fourteen voicing groups.  All of them can be derived from V-System chords by either lowering the tenor two octaves or raising the alto two octaves.

So when I said, "If you try to drop the tenor or the bass two octaves, no matter which voicing group you are starting from, the result will be an unreachable chord that doesn’t belong to any of the fourteen voicing groups."  Strictly speaking, I should have just said, "the result will be a chord that doesn’t belong to any of the fourteen voicing groups."  Not necessarily an unreachable one.  Although it most cases, it will be unreachable.

I'm not sure it's worth correcting.  What I wrote is very nearly correct but you proved that the "unreachable" part of what I wrote is not always correct.

I also thought the chords you found sound good and are totally useable.

Their chord tone gaps are: 1 2 5, 5 2 1, and 0 1 6 respectively. At the end of my chapter, Method 2 Further Insights, I talk about additional voicing groups beyond Ted's fourteen.  The chords you found could fit into some additional voicing groups defined by their chord tone gaps.

I don't know whether Ted discovered chords like the ones you found or not.  He may have and simply decided that there weren't enough of them to warrant them having their own voicing group.  Maybe the V-System should have a "Kontiki voicing group" for those reachable, 4-distinct-note chords, without open strings, in standard or drop standard tuning, that don't fit into the other fourteen voicing groups.
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